Us and them...

This is a discussion on Us and them... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; These links will put things in perspective...I bet this 15 year old and 71 year old trained daily.....Hundreds of examples just like these......the average joe ...

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  1. #151
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    These links will put things in perspective...I bet this 15 year old and 71 year old trained daily.....Hundreds of examples just like these......the average joe can take care of themselves.

    https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm...bigger-robber/

    https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm...kills-burglar/


    Wow thank you for proving my point. In both the cases I guess the people had the "Warrior Mindset" that they would survive and not lay down and die. From your previous posts I a sure this has terrified you to think that there are people out there like that. With the older gentleman the article did not say but what do you want to bet he was a veteran? The kid protected his family with the thought "You will not hurt my father". In both cases that shows the primal instinct to survive.

    As has been stated on other topics there are times when any gun or any training is good at the moment. The average joe can take care of themselves in some situations but hundreds of links can also be posted where they could not or did not come out like this. If you don't want to train don't, it is simple as that.

    Not downplaying what the doctor did but he did not use his weapon he stood in a hallway prepared to use it but again he had the will to protect and survive. The article did not say a word about him not being trained what do you want to bet he had some instruction. Not sure about your comment about keeping his gun in a storage cabinet but it is possible he was not allowed to carry in the facility so he had to lock it up either or though.

    It is also strange to me that you have used links from an organization for concealed carry that itself promotes training for CCW holders and explores and states in there own videos the dangers of failing to train and maintain proficeincy with a firearm. That is like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it?
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    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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  3. #152
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    "If this is hard to listen to, then do not take the responsibility, leave it up to others who refuse to be victims in society.
    We are out there, maybe one of us will save your butt one day...."


    So if a citizen is not highly trained to the max then they should not bother with having any means of personal protection (on their person) at all and should just hope that if they are confronted with a possible deadly threat to their lives they should just pray that Harryball will be coming around the corner to save their respective butts?
    We can all agree that some competence training is highly desirable and that some training is better than none. Beyond that the decision belongs to the mature adult citizen to decide for themselves how much further they ultimately decide to take their training.
    Let's not shove the argument into the realm of the patently absurd.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  4. #153
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    they should just pray that Harryball will be coming around the corner to save their respective butts?

    Well getting a little personal there aren't we?

    There are times when any gun and any training is good. Yep there are cases where folks with no training at all defended themselves with good outcome but there are also many more that did not come out on top. Training is a personal choice, do it or not it is your life affected not mine unless we happen to be in the same place at the same time. The average Joe Blow does not have to train to any particular standard other than his personal goals however when things go bad and he does not know what to do or does the wrong thing many times they look to blame others, but to each his own.

    If I am involved in a lethal force encounter I would much rather have Harryball or some others on the forum come around the corner to either lend a hand or save my butt, instead of several others on the forum, and in real life, who don't train, do not have the mindset to fight and keep fighting until the fight is done and that would either do nothing and freeze, run at the first incoming round, or try to engage without the least bit of training or ability to hit what they aim at simply because they are armed as now I would end up protecting them to.

    In the end though there is a name for the untrained, unskilled person who chooses to stand there and do nothing. "Cannon Fodder".

    If your goal is self protection only great, train to that standard that you set but the minute you go above that and put yourself in a position to protect and defend others you need to have the training and skills to go along with it.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  5. #154
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    "If this is hard to listen to, then do not take the responsibility, leave it up to others who refuse to be victims in society.
    We are out there, maybe one of us will save your butt one day...."


    So if a citizen is not highly trained to the max then they should not bother with having any means of personal protection (on their person) at all and should just hope that if they are confronted with a possible deadly threat to their lives they should just pray that Harryball will be coming around the corner to save their respective butts?
    We can all agree that some competence training is highly desirable and that some training is better than none. Beyond that the decision belongs to the mature adult citizen to decide for themselves how much further they ultimately decide to take their training.
    Let's not shove the argument into the realm of the patently absurd.
    Ill be there for you QK.....

    Some get it, some do not. Thats fine. You are right about one thing, people should be mature about it.....and it seems they cannot....
    tacman605 and Spirit51 like this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  6. #155
    P95
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    These links will put things in perspective...I bet this 15 year old and 71 year old trained daily.....Hundreds of examples just like these......the average joe can take care of themselves.https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm...bigger-robber/https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm...kills-burglar/ Wow thank you for proving my point. In both the cases I guess the people had the "Warrior Mindset" that they would survive and not lay down and die. From your previous posts I a sure this has terrified you to think that there are people out there like that. With the older gentleman the article did not say but what do you want to bet he was a veteran? The kid protected his family with the thought "You will not hurt my father". In both cases that shows the primal instinct to survive.As has been stated on other topics there are times when any gun or any training is good at the moment. The average joe can take care of themselves in some situations but hundreds of links can also be posted where they could not or did not come out like this. If you don't want to train don't, it is simple as that.Not downplaying what the doctor did but he did not use his weapon he stood in a hallway prepared to use it but again he had the will to protect and survive. The article did not say a word about him not being trained what do you want to bet he had some instruction. Not sure about your comment about keeping his gun in a storage cabinet but it is possible he was not allowed to carry in the facility so he had to lock it up either or though.It is also strange to me that you have used links from an organization for concealed carry that itself promotes training for CCW holders and explores and states in there own videos the dangers of failing to train and maintain proficeincy with a firearm. That is like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it?
    So now you can read minds. You know what the people were thinking. Great...just great.

  7. #156
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post
    In other words....no...you haven't. You have no clue what you could actually do.....just speculate.
    95, are you saying to have a clue one needs to go out on the street and become the problem so one can know if he can? To know you can you HAVE to have actually have done?

    I have heard it said that those who where gun fighters and lived by the gun in their day of long age said to learn to be a gunfighter go get in a few if you live you will learn. Myself I would rather go to a Force On Force class where everyone is armed with airsoft guns. You can be in many scenarios of gunfights in a day, and you still learn no matter if you win or lose and you can all go home at the end of the day. You may be sore and have blisters all over but alive.

    I know you where not asking this of me but you did address me in a post on mindset and being able to fight on after being shot or cut. I have never been shot, thanks to God, but in my 60+ years I have been injured in many other way and keep going. There are times when things need to be done before you quit and lay down. You suck it up and do it, if you can move you move. Does it hurt? You bet, but you are not dead, so grow a pair and get the job done.
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    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  8. #157
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    O.K.,just for giggles,If your butt is on the line,who would you want with you,someone who has trained profeciently,taken civilian classes,or someone who bought their weapon and learned just enough to get their CCW? I have been blessed enough to recieve some of the best training in the world,with and without firearms(some on here know my training level),and that"TRAINING" saved my life many times,and now as a LEO I continue to train almost as much,will I ever need it ,probably not,but the one time I need it its nice to know it's there.Does someone who has had no training know that simply taking one step left-right(getting off the X),from a charging attacker be the difference in living or dying,do they understand the Tueller drill? these thing have to be taught by someone to someone.I do agree with a lot on here,Police officers in general cannot shoot,then there are the exceptions,the ones that can,can't class all of them together,just like civilians,and as for shooting under stress,who knows what to do,I've seen Marines freeze up,be in the fetal pos,when the fighting starts,it takes unbelievable training to stick your head up in a firefight and return fire,but we do it,is there a time when a civilian will see multiple shooter situation,no,but it does happen.So,why not train for it,why not get all you can? Do you know the Time and Place you will be attacked,how many threats,weapons,how many family members you will have to protect,I don't so I train for the Ridiculous(as some call it),so,do as you may,and maybe one day I want have to cover you,because you want be in that position.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    A premise that I have essentially seen set forth in this thread is that if you don't shoot 3X a week, or take formal raining 5X a year, then you're just dead meat out there on the streets.

    I find that utterly preposterous.
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  9. #158
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    they should just pray that Harryball will be coming around the corner to save their respective butts?

    Well getting a little personal there aren't we?
    QKS did nothing more than restate the very point Harryball himself had implied.
    "People who take an Internet handle of a great warrior, are usually the first to go fetal when crunch time comes." - Me

  10. #159
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockrocker View Post
    O.K.,just for giggles,If your butt is on the line,who would you want with you,someone who has trained profeciently,taken civilian classes,or someone who bought their weapon and learned just enough to get their CCW? I have been blessed enough to recieve some of the best training in the world,with and without firearms(some on here know my training level),and that"TRAINING" saved my life many times,and now as a LEO I continue to train almost as much,will I ever need it ,probably not,but the one time I need it its nice to know it's there.Does someone who has had no training know that simply taking one step left-right(getting off the X),from a charging attacker be the difference in living or dying,do they understand the Tueller drill? these thing have to be taught by someone to someone.I do agree with a lot on here,Police officers in general cannot shoot,then there are the exceptions,the ones that can,can't class all of them together,just like civilians,and as for shooting under stress,who knows what to do,I've seen Marines freeze up,be in the fetal pos,when the fighting starts,it takes unbelievable training to stick your head up in a firefight and return fire,but we do it,is there a time when a civilian will see multiple shooter situation,no,but it does happen.So,why not train for it,why not get all you can? Do you know the Time and Place you will be attacked,how many threats,weapons,how many family members you will have to protect,I don't so I train for the Ridiculous(as some call it),so,do as you may,and maybe one day I want have to cover you,because you want be in that position.
    The fact that YOU may personally spend your life training and shooting in no way means that other folks who don't train to that level of competence and intensity are incapable of defending themselves or handling situations when crunch time comes.

    Once again the sort of snobbery that underlies this whole thread rises to the surface. Because that's the basic message I get from the extremist rhetoric. 'If you don't spend every spare moment of your life training, well then you're just not as good as us and you'll never be able to properly handle yourself if the moment arrives. You'll be groveling for people like me...'
    "People who take an Internet handle of a great warrior, are usually the first to go fetal when crunch time comes." - Me

  11. #160
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    I think one of the MOD's are going to have to give HarryBall 50 extra points for this one.
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  12. #161
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    No matter how good you are, there is always somebody better...

    You simply cannot train for every possibility, you cannot prepare for every emergency.

    Should you have some training? Absolutely. Should it be more than you get just to get your permit? Absolutely.

    While HB and TM would like to see us all train to the nth degree.... I just want everyone to be the best they can be right where they are... if they choose to go further... great.

    Every single permit to carry issued (whether it's used or not) adds to the doubts in the minds of the criminal element.
    ericb327, TSiWRX and QKShooter like this.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  13. #162
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    So I see it as the time for a US vs THEM Force on Force Showing. Everyone brings their own gear and airsoft. (But there are those who think you will only know for sure if we do it, for real, with real guns. So you will want to bring your EDC and ammo.) We find out who gets shot and who does not. We may even be able to get some TV network to air the whole event.

    THE TRAINED AGAINST THE UNTRAINED!!!!
    Who will win??????
    Coming Soon-----on your local TV station.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  14. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    So I see it as the time for a US vs THEM Force on Force meet. Everyone brings their own gear and airsoft. (But there are those who think you will only know for sure if we do it, for real, with real guns. So you will want to bring your EDC and ammo.) We find out who gets shot and who does not. We may even be able to get some TV network to air the whole event.

    THE TRAINED AGAINST THE UNTRAINED!!!!
    Who will win??????
    Coming Soon-----on your local TV station.
    I'm in....!

    For a front row seat.
    For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (Sun Tzu) The Art of War

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  15. #164
    P95
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    All I have heard on this thread is if you don't run and gun....hide behind trees...roll in the dirt....reload while standing on your head....all the while juggling your five tactical knives and somehow shinning your special little flashlight....train 50 hours per week....dry fire your gun in the dark every night...you don't stand a chance with the big bad wolf. You can't depend on luck. The funny thing is, I posted 3 links to stories where a 15 year old, a doctor, and a 71 year old all took out the bad guy...which all the ninjas said could not happen...and none of the ninjas seem to want to comment..well maybe one. He said he read their minds and they had the worrier mindset..... Where are your ninja stories...real life stories that prove your ninja training was the determining factor in your success against the bg?

  16. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    So I see it as the time for a US vs THEM Force on Force Showing. Everyone brings their own gear and airsoft. (But there are those who think you will only know for sure if we do it, for real, with real guns. So you will want to bring your EDC and ammo.) We find out who gets shot and who does not. We may even be able to get some TV network to air the whole event.

    THE TRAINED AGAINST THE UNTRAINED!!!!
    Who will win??????
    Coming Soon-----on your local TV station.
    Really Bill? That sounds a little childish doesn't it....sorry.....LOL I gave up cowboys and indians a long time ago.

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