Us and them...

This is a discussion on Us and them... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Harryball Proof of what, people who have an encounter do not brag about it. Are you kidding me. You are on a ...

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  1. #196
    P95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Proof of what, people who have an encounter do not brag about it. Are you kidding me. You are on a Defensive Carry forum. Your links showed the warrior mindset that is in people. The same mindset you said was dangerous. Talk about a joke.....
    Soooo you too are a mind reader now. You Know they had the "worrier mindset" that was what made them successful. Let's forget all about the training you said was so CRUCIAL TO SURVIVAL....now you just have to have the mindset....and you know from reading....they had it. Well...lets say they did have the mindset....where did they get it? Not from ninja training...sooooo I guess the average joe has the mindset to survive all along...my point exactly. Thanks for proving it.

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  3. #197
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    The Armed Citizen - A Five Year Analysis

    Executive Summary
    For the period 1997 – 2001, reports of 482 incidents were examined. All involved the use of firearms by private citizens in self defense or defense of others. No law enforcement related incidents were included.

    The majority of incidents (52%) took place in the home. Next most common locale (32%) was in a business. Incidents took place in public places in 9% of reports and 7% occurred in or around vehicles. The most common initial crimes were armed robbery (32%), home invasion (30%), and burglary (18%).

    Overall, shots were fired by the defender in 72% of incidents. The average and median number of shots fired was 2. When more than 2 shots were fired, it generally appeared that the defender’s initial response was to fire until empty.

    Handguns were used in 78% of incidents while long guns were used in 13%; in the balance the type of firearm was not reported. The most common size of handgun was the .35 caliber family (.38, .357, 9mm) at 61%, with most .38s apparently being of the 5 shot variety. Mouseguns (.380s and below) were at 23%, and .40 caliber and up at 15%.

    The range of most incidents appears to be short but in excess of touching distance. It appears that most defenders will make the shoot decision shortly before the criminal comes within arm's length. Defenders frequently communicate with their attackers before shooting.

    The firearm was carried on the body of the defender in only 20% of incidents. In 80% of cases, the firearm was obtained from a place of storage, frequently in another room.

    Reloading was required in only 3 incidents. One of those involved killing an escaped lion with a .32 caliber revolver, which was eventually successful after 13 shots.

    Multiple conspirators were involved in 36% of the incidents. However, there are no apparent cases of drivers or lookouts acting as reinforcements for the criminal actor(s) once shooting starts.

    Immediate flight is the most common response for drivers and lookouts at the sound of gunfire.

    The largest group of violent criminal actors was 7, who committed serial home invasions in Rochester NY. An alert and prepared homeowner dispatched them (2 killed and 1 seriously wounded) with a shotgun when they broke in his door.

    Incidents rarely occurred in reaction time (i.e., second increments). Most commonly, criminals acted in a shark-like fashion, slowly circling and alerting their intended victims. The defender(s) then had time to access even weapons that were stored in other rooms and bring them to bear.

    The most common responses of criminals upon being shot were to flee immediately or expire. With few exceptions, criminals ceased their advances immediately upon being shot. Even mouseguns displayed a significant degree of immediate lethality (30% immediate one shot kills) when employed at close range. Many criminal actors vocally expressed their fear of being shot when the defender displayed a weapon. Upon the criminals' flight, the "victims" frequently chased and captured or shot the criminals and held them for the authorities.

    Analysis by Claude Werner
    Come on Mac. You have something better than this, right? A sample of 482 people, Doesnt wash. I understand your risk assessment, and might even give you some points for it. However, we both know, anytime, anywhere. I also realize that you have had some training and do not fit into the category, of, I have a gun, now Im safe mentality. I wouldnt bet my life on any numbers that you can give me. Believe it or not, I do live life to the fullest.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  4. #198
    P95
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    So now you can read minds. You know what the people were thinking. Great...just great.

    P95. This has got to be one of the most assinine, stupid statements that I have ever read on this forum. You do not need to be a mind reader, phychatrist, teacher or anything else to read a one paragraph, generic article of a 70 something year old man defeating a younger, stronger, armed attacker, a 15 year old defending his family, or a doctor protecting his patients to know these people have the will to survive, never quit and demonstrated a "Warrior Mindset".
    Are you truly that hard headed and lacking in common sense that you truly believe this?

    In regards to you wanting "Ninja Stories" to show that training works simply go to officer.com, any military forum, or on this very forum for experiences of those who care to post them. You want a story about how my training has helped me? Here you go, I worked 20 plus years on the streets wearing a badge and carrying a gun, I have been living and working in the war zones and armpits of the world for 6 years I am not happy nor proud about some of the things I have had to do to survive but I am still living with no extra holes in me, other than that you do not deserve to hear a damn word about anything myself or others have done.

    You sit in the safety of your home typing on your computer spewing trash and posting links to stories of "what other people have done" while you have done nothing to compare to it. As I stated before these are generic, one paragraph articles that say nothing about the people not being trained or taken any training. As far as anyone knows the 15 year old may shoot IDPA in the master class. The 70 year old may be a retired SF Sergeant Major, the doctor may have had his training in the jungles of SE Asia you don't know nor do you care to know as long as you think it proves your point which it does not.
    Well Tac...you have a right to be angry...you have been proven wrong my friend...that's why you are upset. I won't return the fowl degrading language...I have more class than that. I deal with facts...not myths. I would expect more from a military soldier. You just have to keep in mind as you go through life.....you are not always right.... sometimes the "lesser trained common folk" are right...... Stay safe.

  5. #199
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericb327 View Post
    Where could I get FOF lion training?
    What, you haven't done that? You are unprepared, man... you are doomed!

    I'm currently prepping for the eventual explosion of the sun... I'll be the only one ready for THAT eventuality... Wait... let me adjust my tinfoil hat.... there... I'm receiving better now.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  6. #200
    P95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit51 View Post
    Wow. I find your condescending comments more offensive than the occasional "hell". You must be a lot of fun in person.

    Here is a definition. See what you think?

    "In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

    NOT SAYING YOU ARE, but what do YOU think?
    You are entitled to your opinion about me....in this case you are wrong. Your definition could apply to any post on this thread..including your own....but you would never admit that about yourself...or your friends comments.....right? I have a right to my opinion as well as everybody else....why are my comments considered trolling.....but no one else's? Hmmmm...What do YOU think?

  7. #201
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Reloading was required in only 3 incidents. One of those involved killing an escaped lion with a .32 caliber revolver, which was eventually successful after 13 shots.
    Respect....
    "People who take an Internet handle of a great warrior, are usually the first to go fetal when crunch time comes." - Me

  8. #202
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post
    Well Tac...you have a right to be angry...you have been proven wrong my friend...that's why you are upset. I won't return the fowl degrading language...I have more class than that. I deal with facts...not myths. I would expect more from a military soldier. You just have to keep in mind as you go through life.....you are not always right.... sometimes the "lesser trained common folk" are right...... Stay safe.

    There it is, the I'm right and your wrong attitude.

    Exactly what mindset are you expecting from soldiers that have to kill, be shot at, endure mortar attacks, IEDs and grueling weather conditions?
    Spirit51 and tacman605 like this.
    For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (Sun Tzu) The Art of War

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  9. #203
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericb327 View Post
    There it is, the I'm right and your wrong attitude.

    Exactly what mindset are you expecting from soldiers that have to kill, be shot at, endure mortar attacks, IEDs and grueling weather conditions?
    Perhaps to realize that not everybody is having to endure the same?

    Perhaps the hard core LEOs here should realize that not everybody has to pull over cars, go to crime scenes, drive bullet magnets, wear bullet magnets, make arrests, make tactical entries, chase criminals, etc.
    "People who take an Internet handle of a great warrior, are usually the first to go fetal when crunch time comes." - Me

  10. #204
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Come on Mac. You have something better than this, right? A sample of 482 people, Doesnt wash. I understand your risk assessment, and might even give you some points for it. However, we both know, anytime, anywhere. I also realize that you have had some training and do not fit into the category, of, I have a gun, now Im safe mentality. I wouldnt bet my life on any numbers that you can give me. Believe it or not, I do live life to the fullest.
    As you know, Harry, statistics are sketchy at best in this area, and what we have can be instructive if far from definitive. Although I use the term "statistically", I am not offering anyone here the hard line likelihood of any self-defense event. I wouldn't presume to do so. It depends on so many factors, and so many unattainable data points, it's impossible to provide anything definitive. However, that doesn't mean that studies and analyses can't be useful in understanding likely outcomes. That why this set of data points are interesting for discussion.

    Yes, I have had training, and found it quite useful. I honestly agree with you (and have stated repeatedly as a caveat) that ANYTHING can happen to ANYONE at ANY TIME. I have never argued that point. But that statement is the written equivalent of Muzak. It conveys nothing and provides you nothing to work with. It's like repeating water is wet. I even hate seeing it in print.

    My point has been that many gun hobbiests and posters here like to point statements such as "anything can happen, you never know.." to validate their self-defense choices. If you want to train like a ninja, carry around an entire arsenal of weapons, and condition like a SEAL, the exercise will do far more for your longevity than the ability to win a fight - especially if avoiding fights is your goal.

    I certainly don't "bet my life" on anyone's numbers, but I do spend a good deal of effort endeavoring to effectively prioritize my risk management profile. To toss out another cliche', only a fool puts all his eggs in one basket.

    When the one guy posted about his concern about potentially fighting a heroin addict across the street who calls him out, I am grateful I spent most of my early training resources on an undergraduate and graduate education in the military so I could move to a neighborhood where that scenario is simply unthinkable.

    Could that happen in my neighborhood? Sure. I'll post here when that day comes. Don't hold your breath.

  11. #205
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    All kidding aside....

    Yes, training is necessary. At least beyond what you get in a PCW (CCW, or whichever acronym fits your state). I posit that you cannot train for every possibility... The lion being a fairly good example.

    I'm also certain that those who train constantly are living their lives to the fullest.... They enjoy the training... It's not for me. But it surely floats their boat...

    I have several rods and reels... I go fishin' every once in a while... There's a state lake within 1/2 mile of my house... I catch some fish, too... even et a couple once or twice.... But I ain't no fisherman... I got no mega buck bass boat. don't have the 4X4 to pull one if I did... But... I still catch some fish... I still eat some I catch...

    I've even gone huntin' in the past... got me some squirrel and some 'coons in my time.. don't have no 'coon hounds... but still got me a 'coon... even went on a deer hunt with my uncle... I didn't get a deer... but I et some...

    Got me a table saw and a few other wood workin' tools... built me a stair case... did pretty good at it too... but I ain't no cabinet maker/finish carpenter


    oh, and BTW all them joints is dovetails:


    Got me a little cement mixer... one of them 31/2 cubic foot units.... I ain't no mason... but I built my fireplace.... Works pretty good too....


    I even did the outside of it too.... here's when I started:


    Made it alllaway to the top too I did.... But can't find those pix... guess I ain't no photographer...

    Point is... I got a gun... I carry it, I got the permit to go with it... if I need it... I'll prolly make out okay...

    But I ain't no pistolero... that'd be SIXTO
    MadMac, ericb327 and Spirit51 like this.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  12. #206
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Dang, oakchas, that's flippin' AWESOME!!!!

  13. #207
    P95
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericb327 View Post
    There it is, the I'm right and your wrong attitude.

    Exactly what mindset are you expecting from soldiers that have to kill, be shot at, endure mortar attacks, IEDs and grueling weather conditions?
    You really like to just blurt in to other's conversations to start trouble huh eric?

  14. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    All kidding aside....

    Yes, training is necessary. At least beyond what you get in a PCW (CCW, or whichever acronym fits your state). I posit that you cannot train for every possibility... The lion being a fairly good example.

    I'm also certain that those who train constantly are living their lives to the fullest.... They enjoy the training... It's not for me. But it surely floats their boat...

    I have several rods and reels... I go fishin' every once in a while... There's a state lake within 1/2 mile of my house... I catch some fish, too... even et a couple once or twice.... But I ain't no fisherman... I got no mega buck bass boat. don't have the 4X4 to pull one if I did... But... I still catch some fish... I still eat some I catch...

    I've even gone huntin' in the past... got me some squirrel and some 'coons in my time.. don't have no 'coon hounds... but still got me a 'coon... even went on a deer hunt with my uncle... I didn't get a deer... but I et some...

    Got me a table saw and a few other wood workin' tools... built me a stair case... did pretty good at it too... but I ain't no cabinet maker/finish carpenter


    oh, and BTW all them joints is dovetails:


    Got me a little cement mixer... one of them 31/2 cubic foot units.... I ain't no mason... but I built my fireplace.... Works pretty good too....


    I even did the outside of it too.... here's when I started:


    Made it alllaway to the top too I did.... But can't find those pix... guess I ain't no photographer...

    Point is... I got a gun... I carry it, I got the permit to go with it... if I need it... I'll prolly make out okay...

    But I ain't no pistolero... that'd be SIXTO
    Very impressive indeed.

  15. #209
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Oakchas, a state lake 1/2 mile from your house? You lucky dog. I have to drive about 80 miles to the closest one. It's worth it though. Last time I was up there we caught 161 Perch in 3 hours. One more trip and I should be have enough fish to last through the winter. Oh, and nice handywork too. Wish I could build stuff like that.

    I think this thread is probably past any possibility of civil discussion, so who wants to talk fishing?

  16. #210
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    Dang, oakchas, that's flippin' AWESOME!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post
    Very impressive indeed.
    Thanks for the compliments, but the point is that if you have the mindset... you can prevail.... whether it's woodworking, masonry, huntin', fishin', or staying safe with your carry piece...

    Put your mind to the task at hand and come out on top.... whatever the task is... and by whatever means necessary...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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