Us and them...

This is a discussion on Us and them... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by oakchas Put your mind to the task at hand and come out on top.... whatever the task is... and by whatever means ...

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  1. #211
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Put your mind to the task at hand and come out on top.... whatever the task is... and by whatever means necessary...
    ^ This, +1.

    But hey, beware, that gets too close to the mindset thing that we're discussing (Some thoughts from Col Grossman), too!

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  3. #212
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    There are Sheep,There are Wolves,Then there are Sheepdogs,The Sheep don't like the Sheepdog,The Wolves don't like the Sheepdog,but when the Wolves come,the Sheep run to the Sheepdog.

    P.S. Gone Training!

  4. #213
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockrocker View Post
    There are Sheep,There are Wolves,Then there are Sheepdogs,The Sheep don't like the Sheepdog,The Wolves don't like the Sheepdog,but when the Wolves come,the Sheep run to the Sheepdog.

    P.S. Gone Training!
    My flock is small.... Me, the wife, and two dogs... not sheepdogs. We'll be okay... but thanks just the same for the offer! I ain't runnin' to no sheepdog... he's drawin' fire... and don't expect me to hold the back door for you either... And good luck!
    MadMac and The Dark like this.
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams
    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

  5. #214
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post
    You really like to just blurt in to other's conversations to start trouble huh eric?
    I believe you invite this. Is this not the type of interaction and response you crave with your exacting statements? I would remind you of this quote from you in my thread where you call me names and then take the high road here and say people are childish. Only seeing or only wanting to use a portion of my post for a chance at getting one in on me. Hypocrite!!!

    Hmmmm.....lets not try to play sheriff woody now. I do commend you for calling the police...but to publicly call your neighbor a drug dealer...wether they are or not....is just asking for it. You should have stopped with the call to the police and let them do their job.
    tacman605 and Spirit51 like this.
    For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (Sun Tzu) The Art of War

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  6. #215
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockrocker View Post
    There are Sheep,There are Wolves,Then there are Sheepdogs,The Sheep don't like the Sheepdog,The Wolves don't like the Sheepdog,but when the Wolves come,the Sheep run to the Sheepdog.

    P.S. Gone Training!
    I was under the impression we had finally retired the old sheepdoggie moniker. No such luck.
    ericb327 and Spirit51 like this.

  7. #216
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post
    Soooo you too are a mind reader now. You Know they had the "worrier mindset" that was what made them successful. Let's forget all about the training you said was so CRUCIAL TO SURVIVAL....now you just have to have the mindset....and you know from reading....they had it. Well...lets say they did have the mindset....where did they get it? Not from ninja training...sooooo I guess the average joe has the mindset to survive all along...my point exactly. Thanks for proving it.
    Your still here.

    You must not have read my OP. Read the last paragraph and see whos point Im making.....

  8. #217
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    Fundamentals are the core of every system. Once these are mastered, everything else is gravy. It just depends on how much gravy you like. But if you can shoot well, perform a reload or malfunfuntion drill, know how to do a good smooth draw, I believe you have alot going for you for home protection and away from home too.

    Glockman you are absolutely correct but in order for you to "master", being the key word, these fundementals you have to train to do it. You do not buy a gun and automatically shoot well, perform a reload or malfunction drill or have a good smooth draw by watching a video. You have to practice the skill in order to do it under the stress of the engagement. I agree 100% what you do after that is up to you the bad part is many will not even do the basics or "master" anything.

    Madmac. This is the same report that stated when all was said and done that the homeowner/CC'er or whomever, all they needed was a .22 and at the most a shotgun for backup and my personal favorite safe handling of the firearm was by far more important than marksmanship. This goes right along with surveyed criminals stated that they would rather break into a house where the the homeowner was unarmed than one that was armed. Now that was a shocker!

    Oakchas that is truly awesome I wish I had that kind of talent. Now using your example. How many miscuts? Did you mess up on any of the dovetails? Was some of the building trial and error for the lack of a better term? Did you draw out and execute a plan or just wing it?
    In a true lethal force encounter you don't get to redo the draw. You don't get to do a chamber check. Whatever grip you have on the weapon when it comes out of the holster is what you live with. Whatever mistake you make you will not have the opprotunity, most likely, to fix it. The purpose of training is to help you build a plan. Yes sometimes that plan is to wing it with whatever works. It helps you not go into a situation blind and to help you prepare mentally for what may happen.

    I completely agree that you cannot plan for everything. I agree that there is always someone better. I agree an amatuer can tattoo a professional at anytime. I agree that a 99 year old grandmother fighting for her life can stab a 19 year old punk in the femoral artery with her knitting needle and he will bleed out. Does that mean I am going to take up knitting? Not hardly. Does that mean that others her age should go out and buy knitting needles instead of a gun? Nope.
    Lastly I agree not everyone needs the same level of training. As I have preached over and over what hurts me does not hurt you, what works for me does not work for you, what you consider high speed I consider another day at the office. Are either one of us wrong? Nope. It is up to the individual to seek his personal level.

    A lot of this starts when people who are not trained or trained to an absolute minimum level start saying what they would do if this happened or that happened then turn around and ask when is it safe to carry a round in the chamber? You can't have it both ways. Everyone has to find that personal boundary or limit that they will not cross until they have trained to do it.

    As I stated before the instructor cannot tell you what will happen, he does not know any better than you do. He can give you experience and personal knowledge of what worked and what didn't so you do not have to experiment in that "Oh crap" moment. You do not have to train daily, go to 800 hours of courses to be effective in most cases, BUT you do have to set that personal boundary and limit I mentioned earlier and do not attempt to go very far past it or you might not make it back. That is different for all of us.

    P95 in most cases where two individuals disagree you can't really say who is right as each have their own opinion, however, when multiple people start saying the same thing about one person it is ussually based on fact. You don't have to read minds or be a college professor to see that you are always right according to you and everyone else is wrong. As Spirit stated you must be a blast in person.

    I would like to clear up a couple of things. I have not used "foul" language in speaking to you. (Note: fowl is a bird) If I had used foul language there would have been no doubt in anyone's mind. I have not been proven wrong in any way, shape or form. You posted three links to one paragraph articles stating that these people fought back or were prepared to fight back in a SD encounter. It ends there. That is fact.
    Nowhere does it say they did not have training. As I posted there is not one word of the history or background of these individuals but you assume since you did a quick search they automatically fit into what you wanted to say. The website that you got them from encourages, endorses and preaches training to their members. They have there own training link and videos so what makes you think those articles proves anything about what you were trying to say?

    You refuse to admit the mere fact that they fought back in two of the cases in the manner they did shows they have the WILL TO SURVIVE AND A WARRIOR MINDSET. Fighting back and not giving up, being willing to protect others is the definition of that mindset. Why is it so hard for you to see that?

    I am a long time LEO, a former Marine and a Private Military Contractor in the Middle East not a Military Soldier. (No disrespect intended or implied to those that are) but get your facts straight before you spew forth. I am not angry at you I am disgusted with your attitude and lack of honor. You stated in another post something to the effect that you live close to a range but don't go then had the gall to ask the question "Does that make me lazy?" Yes it does. It shows you have no motivation and are a weak individual.
    I do not give a damn what you expect from a "Military Soldier" or anyone else. Your opinion matters not. I only wish I could use the "foul language" on here that you claim but alas I cannot so I will have to stick to what I can use. You say you will not respond in kind to me as you "Have to much class". Well friend a $1000 dollar a night hooker may claim she has class but in the end she is no better than a $5.00 crack whore but you go for what you what you think is right.

    You post how I have used foul language against you and post copies of the forum rules but when Spirit points out that you may have violated the same rule you ignore that fact as you are always right. I will admit when I am wrong. I was wrong for engaging in the posts with you as I and others have agreed you are simply trolling to get a rise from someone and I fell right into it.

    I would like to say with no offense to anyone, instead of an us vs. them, trained vs. untrained, paintball war how bout we all get together, shoot a lot of ammo, and learn a little bit? I promise you won't have to wear Ninja shoes or a Rambo headband but who knows we might all learn something that keeps us all alive.
    TSiWRX, ericb327, oakchas and 6 others like this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  9. #218
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    As you know, Harry, statistics are sketchy at best in this area, and what we have can be instructive if far from definitive. Although I use the term "statistically", I am not offering anyone here the hard line likelihood of any self-defense event. I wouldn't presume to do so. It depends on so many factors, and so many unattainable data points, it's impossible to provide anything definitive. However, that doesn't mean that studies and analyses can't be useful in understanding likely outcomes. That why this set of data points are interesting for discussion.

    Yes, I have had training, and found it quite useful. I honestly agree with you (and have stated repeatedly as a caveat) that ANYTHING can happen to ANYONE at ANY TIME. I have never argued that point. But that statement is the written equivalent of Muzak. It conveys nothing and provides you nothing to work with. It's like repeating water is wet. I even hate seeing it in print.

    My point has been that many gun hobbiests and posters here like to point statements such as "anything can happen, you never know.." to validate their self-defense choices. If you want to train like a ninja, carry around an entire arsenal of weapons, and condition like a SEAL, the exercise will do far more for your longevity than the ability to win a fight - especially if avoiding fights is your goal.

    I certainly don't "bet my life" on anyone's numbers, but I do spend a good deal of effort endeavoring to effectively prioritize my risk management profile. To toss out another cliche', only a fool puts all his eggs in one basket.

    When the one guy posted about his concern about potentially fighting a heroin addict across the street who calls him out, I am grateful I spent most of my early training resources on an undergraduate and graduate education in the military so I could move to a neighborhood where that scenario is simply unthinkable.

    Could that happen in my neighborhood? Sure. I'll post here when that day comes. Don't hold your breath.
    I understand were you are coming from now...I think anytime and anywhere is the best we have. Unless you think we should use "columbine is a nice place to raise kids"
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  10. #219
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    I would like to say with no offense to anyone, instead of an us vs. them, trained vs. untrained, paintball war how bout we all get together, shoot a lot of ammo, and learn a little bit? I promise you won't have to wear Ninja shoes or a Rambo headband but who knows we might all learn something that keeps us all alive.
    ^ THIS.
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  11. #220
    P95
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    This old thread has run it's course....not much info....just run and gun mudslinging. Catch you on another thread. Stay safe all you common joes....and may all the ninja and sheepdog dreams come true.

  12. #221
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    Thanks! Much appreciated. Now I feel OK about selling all of my firearms so that I'll have some money to donate to the commune that I want to join and buy those totally RAD Woodstock era LOVE beads that I always wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Ill be there for you QK.....

    Some get it, some do not. Thats fine. You are right about one thing, people should be mature about it.....and it seems they cannot....
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    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  13. #222
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    QK this commune has nothing to do with nudity does it? If it does how would you carry? No pics please!!!!
    Spirit51 likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  14. #223
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    tac... You're right about a bit of trial and error... and maybe a miscut he and there... But as in all craft... wood, leather, stone, or pistol... you adjust.... you do it on the fly if you must...

    Training certainly helps... and builds actions and reactions into muscle memory... and that's a great thing... and training can expand the possible reactions.

    Most of us here remember US Airways flight 1549... also known as the Miracle on the Hudson, and if that doesn't ring a bell... how about Captain Sully? Chesley Sullenberger, the pilot, landed his plane (Airbus A320) on the Hudson River after the engines (both of them) inhaled a flock of geese and both engines failed.

    Now... landing a plane is one of the first things you learn when you learn to fly.... and if you're still here to read it or write about it... you've done it successfully every time you've tried.... Landing a plane on the water isn't much different... especially a plane that size, on water that smooth. Thinking of doing it, though... well that requires doing something you're not really trained for.... I mean, I'm sure he's trained for water ditchings... but on a river? downtown? probably not. But gee, ya know what... it's just as wide as a runway... let's give it a shot....

    And after that, it's all basics... dead stick landing, no power. Why, it's almost like....





    Draw, acquire, fire...

    Yeah, you may have more than one attacker... and many other variables can come into play... including... "I'm not going to the airport today at all..."
    tacman605 and First Sgt like this.
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams
    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

  15. #224
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    Oakchas I agree. At least have the basics down pat though the folks that worry me are the ones who won't even do that, but now think they can conquer the world. To each his own though.

    The wood work was truly awesome.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  16. #225
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Thanks! Much appreciated. Now I feel OK about selling all of my firearms so that I'll have some money to donate to the commune that I want to join and buy those totally RAD Woodstock era LOVE beads that I always wanted.
    I new you had it in you. Do me a favor ship your guns to me. Then all will be right in the world. O' like tacman said, if its a nude commune, please, no pics.....

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