Us and them...

This is a discussion on Us and them... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by oakchas tac... You're right about a bit of trial and error... and maybe a miscut he and there... But as in all ...

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  1. #226
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    tac... You're right about a bit of trial and error... and maybe a miscut he and there... But as in all craft... wood, leather, stone, or pistol... you adjust.... you do it on the fly if you must...

    Training certainly helps... and builds actions and reactions into muscle memory... and that's a great thing... and training can expand the possible reactions.

    Most of us here remember US Airways flight 1549... also known as the Miracle on the Hudson, and if that doesn't ring a bell... how about Captain Sully? Chesley Sullenberger, the pilot, landed his plane (Airbus A320) on the Hudson River after the engines (both of them) inhaled a flock of geese and both engines failed.

    Now... landing a plane is one of the first things you learn when you learn to fly.... and if you're still here to read it or write about it... you've done it successfully every time you've tried.... Landing a plane on the water isn't much different... especially a plane that size, on water that smooth. Thinking of doing it, though... well that requires doing something you're not really trained for.... I mean, I'm sure he's trained for water ditchings... but on a river? downtown? probably not. But gee, ya know what... it's just as wide as a runway... let's give it a shot....

    And after that, it's all basics... dead stick landing, no power. Why, it's almost like....





    Draw, acquire, fire...

    Yeah, you may have more than one attacker... and many other variables can come into play... including... "I'm not going to the airport today at all..."
    From what I remember reading Captain Sully did far more than the basics, yes he used the basics, but I believe I read that several airline pilots had tried to simulate his landing and all crashed. I also think I remember Captain Sully had practiced many crash landing in simulators in his life time of flying. But not that one. For me this shows training and Gods help will see the day through.
    Harryball, Spirit51 and tacman605 like this.
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  3. #227
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    From what I remember reading Captain Sully did far more than the basics, yes he used the basics, but I believe I read that several airline pilots had tried to simulate his landing and all crashed. I also think I remember Captain Sully had practiced many crash landing in simulators in his life time of flying. But not that one. For me this shows training and Gods help will see the day through.
    Gosh, I hope he didn't practice "crash landings" any more than you practice complying with the bad guy...:D

    Flying a sim is not the same as flying the real deal. It's quite possible that they might crash the sim, but not the real plane. Sims tend to be much more sensitive, really.
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams
    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

  4. #228
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Gosh, I hope he didn't practice "crash landings" any more than you practice complying with the bad guy...:D

    Flying a sim is not the same as flying the real deal. It's quite possible that they might crash the sim, but not the real plane. Sims tend to be much more sensitive, really.
    Kinda like using an airsoft pistol in a FOF class...

  5. #229
    Ex Member Array MNgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    Not feeling the need to shoot 3-5 times a week, or attend a training course 5 times a year, hardly means a person cannot be proficient with a firearm. They may not be über proficient, like you, but they can still be proficient with practicing just a couple of times a year.

    To be honest I saw this thread as a barely subtle vehicle for the committed elitists to look down their noses at the less committed.

    I think some of us just see a difference between defensive carry and extensive carry.
    Mr. Rogers, it's totally you choice if you prefer not to practice more than twice a year. However, that does not anyone a proficient make and preserve.

    When I was really into practical shooting, I shot about 100,000 round yearly. Now a 10,000 rounds keep me nicely in the game.

    As to the elitists, I'm a regular guy that has shot a lot and competed a lot and experienced a lot. Some prefer woodworking, I prefer shooting. What is wrong with that?

    Stay safe.

  6. #230
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    My flock is small.... Me, the wife, and two dogs... not sheepdogs. We'll be okay... but thanks just the same for the offer! I ain't runnin' to no sheepdog... he's drawin' fire... and don't expect me to hold the back door for you either... And good luck!
    I only believe in sheep and wolves.

    Quote Originally Posted by MNgunner View Post
    Mr. Rogers, it's totally you choice if you prefer not to practice more than twice a year. However, that does not anyone a proficient make and preserve.
    Whatever. This thread has run its course as far as I am concerned. I don't/won't live my life by imposing on it the requirement to meet the standards of others. And my life is not a self-induced fantasy scene from Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto where I need to feel prepared to engage zombies, tangos and other hostiles every 30-seconds.
    "People who take an Internet handle of a great warrior, are usually the first to go fetal when crunch time comes." - Me

  7. #231
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Man, go to work for 12 hrs and look what I miss...
    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    I only believe in sheep and wolves.
    And wolves who tend to train a lot scare the sheep.

    Someone asked what have you learned in training:

    1. I didn't know what I didn't know

    2. Getting off the line of fire (and not the single side step L/R taught at most classes) will most likely keep you from being shot

    3. It is possible to return accurate fire while busting off the X

    4. Point shooting works

    5. Precise aimed fire works

    6. It is possible to bring a knife to a gunfight and prevail

    7. You may very well have to go 'hands-on' with someone to create enough distance to even access your weapon

    8. Having a weapon (primary, BUG or knife) accessible by your off-hand may be a life saver

    9. Even though I live in a quiet small town, bad guys can drive to here

    10. Carry your gun everywhere you are able, and carry spare ammo

    11. Your situational awareness can fail you

    12. Reality has a way of biting you

    13. I know what it is like to shoot from a restaurant booth, from on the ground, from and around vehicles


    There are other things I'll think of later, I'm sure.

    I have never taken a Sniper, CQB, Small Unit Patrolling, etc. class.

    I have taken Close-Range, Extreme Close-Range, and 0-5Ft Gunfighting classes. Courses that are geared to the very type of encounters that 'statistically' the average person may find themselves in. I do plan to take a tac-med class sometime in the near future.

    Yes, I pay for classes out of my own pocket, I shoot often, I practice accessing my gun and do a lot of dry fire and Airsoft practice in my garage and backyard.

    I make zero apologies for trying to be the best I can be for my family and myself.

  8. #232
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey2011 View Post
    Toyota Camrys live in the ditch November through March, up here. Whereas those Jeep Wranglers have the ability to push through the obstacles and do what needs to be done.

    Even that example comes back to training and experience. Someone that drove in California all their life would die on these roads in the winter. I however, have grown up here and have experienced what it's like to slide down a highway sideways, hit a patch of black ice at 70mph, and most importantly, I've driven in snow over my hood. That experience has lead to me being able to drive just about anything, anywhere. Ability will always win out over inability. Always.

    The whole point of this thread is that the person that has training and experience under his belt will likely fair better than the average Joe Bag-o-donuts in a SD situation. Even a minimal amount of training is better than nothing, but I strongly advise anyone serious about carrying to at least take a basic pistol course.
    Agreed. I drove the roads up there, died twice, and my Camry is still stuck in a ditch.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

  9. #233
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post
    You are entitled to your opinion about me....in this case you are wrong. Your definition could apply to any post on this thread..including your own....but you would never admit that about yourself...or your friends comments.....right? I have a right to my opinion as well as everybody else....why are my comments considered trolling.....but no one else's? Hmmmm...What do YOU think?
    Just to say again....I didn't call you a Troll.

    There have been many "snarkie" comments made here. No one has been immune, but yours has seemed to risen to a "snarkie deluxe" Almost a art form. The degrading comments you have made have seemed to be done to get a emotional negative response, which you have been very successful in getting. My opinion is....do what you think is right for you.....I will do what is right for me....others will do what is right for them. I will not insult you for "not doing enough" training....but I SURE won't insult anyone for taking their training more seriously than you do. So there....I have explained myself more than I really needed to. Now, how about dropping the "prods" to get this discussion hiked up to a out and out "us against them" war. I am sure you know that being a human...you are not always right.
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
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  10. #234
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowflyer View Post
    Agreed. I drove the roads up there, died twice, and my Camry is still stuck in a ditch.
    Oh, how I wish I could find the picture of the intersection with HUNDREDS of cars in the ditch, and a good number of them upside down. Every one with an out of state plate. People came up here for the oil boom and thought they could drive in the snow. That was a fun day at work, what with all the dodging of the stranded vehicles on the highway.

    Ah ha! Found one! This isn't the one I took, but it's from the same blizzard on the same highway. Inexperience at it's finest.

  11. #235
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I see alot of semi trucks in that pic. Seems kind of ignorant to call them inexperienced.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  12. #236
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I see alot of semi trucks in that pic. Seems kind of ignorant to call them inexperienced.
    Not really. Most of the ones driving in the oil field have ZERO experience in snow. The rest are typically doped and/or boozed out of their minds. I know, I spent enough time working with the people in that area. I drove that road at least once a week, and I was on that highway during the worst of that blizzard, driving a Dish Network truck. I managed to not wind up in the ditch, and I had to weave around the cars that were stuck in it.

  13. #237
    Ex Member Array MNgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    [ clip] Fundamentals are the core of every system. Once these are mastered, everything else is gravy. It just depends on how much gravy you like. But if you can shoot well, perform a reload or malfunfuntion drill, know how to do a good smooth draw, I believe you have alot going for you for home protection and away from home too.

    Training to expand on these things is always beneficial, but not entirely necessary to be able to put a bullet in a thugs buttocks.
    I seriously doubt that the basics are the most desirable thing in firearm self-defense. You write "if you can shoot well." What on earth does that mean, exactly? Being able to put five rounds from 5 feet to a TQ-15/TQ-16 Scoring target or accomplish the Bill Drill from 25 yards? Maybe do the El Presidente under 20 second with five hits? Put seven round with an LCP to 5-inch group from 25 yards? Merely being able to hit buttocks?

    Smooth draw? In less than a second hitting the target twice in chest and one in the head, or one of those five-second smooth draws from five yards to an ATC-09?

    Are you seriously promoting that after all your proficient basic training you aim at the bad guys buttocks?

    Seriously?

  14. #238
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNgunner View Post
    I seriously doubt that the basics are the most desirable thing in firearm self-defense. You write "if you can shoot well." What on earth does that mean, exactly? Being able to put five rounds from 5 feet to a TQ-15/TQ-16 Scoring target or accomplish the Bill Drill from 25 yards? Maybe do the El Presidente under 20 second with five hits? Put seven round with an LCP to 5-inch group from 25 yards? Merely being able to hit buttocks?

    Smooth draw? In less than a second hitting the target twice in chest and one in the head, or one of those five-second smooth draws from five yards to an ATC-09?

    Are you seriously promoting that after all your proficient basic training you aim at the bad guys buttocks?

    Seriously?
    While entertaining, I think you took that a little out of context. I'd have to agree with what he said. The only thing I'd add is that in order to maintain those skills, you do have to practice or "train." As long as you can do all that, you're pretty well off. My problem is with people that don't even bother to learn all that.

  15. #239
    Ex Member Array MNgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    I make zero apologies for trying to be the best I can be for my family and myself.
    That just about sums the thread up.

    (Did you train with Gabe?)

  16. #240
    Ex Member Array MNgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey2011 View Post
    While entertaining, I think you took that a little out of context. I'd have to agree with what he said. The only thing I'd add is that in order to maintain those skills, you do have to practice or "train." As long as you can do all that, you're pretty well off. My problem is with people that don't even bother to learn all that.
    Maintain basic skills? Good luck with that. The definition is missing. "Shooting well" can mean anything on this forum if one is to believe the asinine posts.

    More over, he has challenged everyone willing to train and master the gun with numerous snide comments and questions (and scenarios), with is buddy suggesting that all of us -even those who have been in the harms way for twenty years for our country - are merely freaking 'ninjas.' How derogatory is that?

    I spent years in Japan practicing Judo and Aikido and some time Taekwondo in Korea (Krav maga in Israel, ect.). I never saw a Ninja. How does wanting to study with Larry Vickers make me one?

    Happy 4th of July.

    Stay safe.
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