Us and them...

This is a discussion on Us and them... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by MNgunner Maintain basic skills? Good luck with that. The definition is missing. "Shooting well" can mean anything on this forum if one ...

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  1. #241
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNgunner View Post
    Maintain basic skills? Good luck with that. The definition is missing. "Shooting well" can mean anything on this forum if one is to believe the asinine posts.

    More over, he has challenged everyone willing to train and master the gun with numerous snide comments and questions (and scenarios), with is buddy suggesting that all of us -even those who have been in the harms way for twenty years for our country - are merely freaking 'ninjas.' How derogatory is that?

    I spent years in Japan practicing Judo and Aikido and some time Taekwondo in Korea (Krav maga in Israel, ect.). I never saw a Ninja. How does wanting to study with Larry Vickers make me one?

    Happy 4th of July.

    Stay safe.
    I want to study with Larry Vicker's too. Posted that earlier in this thread, in fact. I think GMan's point in that post was that as long as you maintain a certain standard for accuracy (though, he didn't define that, but I'd figure the basic definition of "combat accurate" would apply there), and can exhibit certain skills, you should be fine. You still have to train often enough to maintain those skills. For some that might be weekly, and others maybe once a month. He's sitting kind of in the middle here, like a lot of us.

    As far as P95, yes he is rude. Yes he is insulting people that should never be insulted, but I highly doubt that he is GMan's "buddy." As far as I'm concerned, people should just ignore P95's posts. He's flat out trolling (Yes, I WILL say it. lol.).

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  3. #242
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNgunner View Post
    (Did you train with Gabe?)
    Twice, personally.

    Other times with Cruel Hand Luke (Randy Harris).

  4. #243
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey2011 View Post
    I want to study with Larry Vicker's too. Posted that earlier in this thread, in fact. I think GMan's point in that post was that as long as you maintain a certain standard for accuracy (though, he didn't define that, but I'd figure the basic definition of "combat accurate" would apply there), and can exhibit certain skills, you should be fine. You still have to train often enough to maintain those skills. For some that might be weekly, and others maybe once a month. He's sitting kind of in the middle here, like a lot of us.

    As far as P95, yes he is rude. Yes he is insulting people that should never be insulted, but I highly doubt that he is GMan's "buddy." As far as I'm concerned, people should just ignore P95's posts. He's flat out trolling (Yes, I WILL say it. lol.).
    That is a part of Glockman and others believe I disagree with, shooting skill is not all it takes to survive in a true gunfight. By gunfight I mean where you are confronted with a BG and weapon and you draw yours and shots are fired. My findings are you may have to make room and or time to draw your weapon to start the fight. There is also times and I think most times, unless you are already behind cover, moving off the X will keep you from taking hits and that should be your first priority in any fight with shots fired. The one thing I am sure of the most is you can not stand still in one spot, in the open, and win a gunfight. Even if you have that super fast .1 sec draw speed you will take a hit and you can and will see both die of their injuries. I say this because no handgun will knock someone off their feet as we see on TV, even though hit you or the BG can still shoot and will. After being hit it takes in most cases many seconds to die even if hit in the heart, unless you are hit in the CNS you have time to fight on. Since you have not moved,even if he is hit, you are still in his OODA loops plan of action and his body will carry on.

    Most of my thoughts and beliefs come from Force on Force not only going to schools and learning the how and why of gun shooting skills. FOF is the rubber meeting the road, its the same as being in many gunfights without the risk of dying. And like all things of competition you learn by failing more than winning. When you lose you have to become better.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  5. #244
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
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    Glockman 10, I read you 5 x 5. Wilco. *****

    Don Jose de La Mancha

    "I exist to Live, not live to exist"

  6. #245
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    Basically I have two things to say on this.

    1) I like professional training. It's fun, I learn a lot and I feel the better I can master the tools in my toolbox, the better my chances of survival. I spent almost 10 years on a swat team and 30 years working in the streets. I know first hand and personally what crime, violence and what death is all about. I know the value of professional training and I participate in it as often as I can.

    2) I couldn't care less what others do. People who don't believe in training... Whatever. It's your life and your death. Doesn't matter to me. I don't care if you work in an office, construction, mow lawns, work in a restaurant or sell insurance. As far as I'm concerned people who don't believe training is important are delusional. But it's your life... what you do with it is your problem.

    I don't believe you can have too much training.... But I also don't believe you have to be a training freak in order to learn how to defend yourself. I do know marksmanship and gun handling are skills that depreciate without practice. How often you train, practice or choose not to is your own business.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  7. #246
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Basically I have two things to say on this.

    1) I like professional training. It's fun, I learn a lot and I feel the better I can master the tools in my toolbox, the better my chances of survival. I spent almost 10 years on a swat team and 30 years working in the streets. I know first hand and personally what crime, violence and what death is all about. I know the value of professional training and I participate in it as often as I can.

    2) I couldn't care less what others do. People who don't believe in training... Whatever. It's your life and your death. Doesn't matter to me. I don't care if you work in an office, construction, mow lawns, work in a restaurant or sell insurance. As far as I'm concerned people who don't believe training is important are delusional. But it's your life... what you do with it is your problem.

    I don't believe you can have too much training.... But I also don't believe you have to be a training freak in order to learn how to defend yourself. I do know marksmanship and gun handling are skills that depreciate without practice. How often you train, practice or choose not to is your own business.
    Well said.

  8. #247
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
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    G'evening Pilot: I am a commercial, multi engine, land & sea pilot # 1087851. Most of my training 'after' the simple basics, is / was in the field of emergencies, for this I, and you, train & train, but this does not make you paranoid.

    Nor does training for a possible violent encounter. With proper training one exudes a form of confidence which can be felt in one way or another. Many time this psychological shield may prevent an encounter, since the baddie, whose business requires this sensitivity, will then look for someone that is 'not' exuding ?? - staying out of the paranormal - this sense / field of confidence.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to Live, not live to exist"
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  9. #248
    Ex Member Array MNgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey2011 View Post
    I want to study with Larry Vicker's too. Posted that earlier in this thread, in fact. I think GMan's point in that post was that as long as you maintain a certain standard for accuracy (though, he didn't define that, but I'd figure the basic definition of "combat accurate" would apply there), and can exhibit certain skills, you should be fine. You still have to train often enough to maintain those skills. For some that might be weekly, and others maybe once a month. He's sitting kind of in the middle here, like a lot of us.

    As far as P95, yes he is rude. Yes he is insulting people that should never be insulted, but I highly doubt that he is GMan's "buddy." As far as I'm concerned, people should just ignore P95's posts. He's flat out trolling (Yes, I WILL say it. lol.).
    Amazingly, I agree.

    Happy 4th.

  10. #249
    Ex Member Array MNgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    Twice, personally.

    Other times with Cruel Hand Luke (Randy Harris).
    He and his crew sure has some interesting approach to self defense. Good for you.

    Happy 4th and stay safe.

  11. #250
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    People who don't believe in training... Whatever. It's your life and your death. Doesn't matter to me. I don't care if you work in an office, construction, mow lawns, work in a restaurant or sell insurance. As far as I'm concerned people who don't believe training is important are delusional. But it's your life... what you do with it is your problem.
    I'll add this to that. I think people who smoke, overindulge in alcohol, don't exercise, overeat and/or are obese and think lack of pistol training will likely impact their untimely "death" more than any of the above simply refuse to understand facts.

    ...and people who talk in life-and-death hyperbole about pistol training are simply gun enthusiasts with an overactive imagination.

    Is that delusional?

  12. #251
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    people who smoke, overindulge in alcohol, don't exercise, overeat and/or are obese
    This has been mentioned at least one other time in this thread.

    What about those of us who are none of these things, yet indulge in training classes? How will we fare?
    Last edited by ScottM; July 4th, 2012 at 09:40 AM. Reason: Spelling

  13. #252
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    This has been mentioned at least one other time in this thread.

    What about those of us who are none of these things, yet indulge in training classes? How will we fair?
    The word is fare. Who knows? Anything can happen to anyone at any time and any place. But, statistically, you're much more likely to maximize your lifespan than those others.

    Nothing more pathetic than seeing a guy weighing 380 lbs. practicing his fast draw. He's killing himself every day with a fork, and he's concerned he'll be killed by being a quarter second slow on the draw in a scenario that is so unlikely, it's almost incalcuable.
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  14. #253
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I guess I need to clarify a few things here, as to not leave any room for anyone to misquote me.

    I believe that center mass is the preferred area to target( preferably in the front, not the back)

    I believe there are countless folks around the country who defend themselves with success everyday without formal training.

    I believe training is a good investment for those so interested and hung ho. If you are a desk jockey , or other such occupation I believe it adds some excitement to your life.

    I believe it is necessary for those who intentionally put themselves in harms way.

    I believe the definition of combat accuracy is to be able to hit your intentional target consistently at whatever distance you need to.

    I believe that most people fixate, fantasize, and get caught up in this stuff, and convince themselves they will be victims.

    And I believe that there are none so blind, as those who will not see.
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    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  15. #254
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    I think you need to be proficient in the use of your weapon of choice. And by "proficient" I mean you should be able to draw and land most, if not all, within the pie plate at about 5 - 7 yards while point shooting (I'm a civvie, not LEO or military).

    I go the range about once every two weeks. Shoot about 100 rounds out of my carry. Then I play with my .22's until I've spent enough time that I feel it's time to get back to my family. I work a lot, and if I'm not spending my off time with my family, I start to feel a twinge of remorse.

    To sum up, I'll just paraphrase MadMac: my level of training is commensurate with the likelihood of an armed encounter.

    If you are a training enthusiast and you enjoy it, then by all means. For me, however, I think the time and money I recently spent to purchase additional life insurance was better spent there than it would have been in a long series of training classes. (No need for the low hanging fruit retort).

    On an aside, I'm perplexed that this thread has been so fertile.
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  16. #255
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    The word is fare.
    Oops. It's still early. Will edit my post.

    Nothing more pathetic than seeing a guy weighing 380 lbs. practicing his fast draw. He's killing himself every day with a fork, and he's concerned he'll be killed by being a quarter second slow on the draw in a scenario that is so unlikely, it's almost incalcuable.
    The especially sad part is when the above description fits the guys who are running the training class.

    We've all seen it on TV, YouTube, and sometimes in real life.

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