Us and them...

This is a discussion on Us and them... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ScottM I'm not sure why several on this thread equate training to neglecting time with family My comment re "twinge of remorse" ...

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  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    I'm not sure why several on this thread equate training to neglecting time with family
    My comment re "twinge of remorse" is for my personal situation, and not a value judgment on any other's personal choices. Just giving you the context of my situation, that's all.

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  3. #272
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Any decision made on statistics is being made on averages, meaning you decide to base your action on the lower half of the numbers. I just hope for those who do this you only run into that same half.



    So is a decision made on statistics a realistic need or a perceived need? I see it as a perceived and made on a hope and maybe a prayer.
    I would hate to think I lived in a world where my very chance of survival were based on either. I don't pay attention to statistics, I live my life the way I want. If it was so bad that I perceived it hinged on hope and prayer, I would drive an M1A tank everywhere, stay buttoned up, and hook my gas mask into the NBC system.
    Wouldn't be much of an existence would it?
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    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  4. #273
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    In 1987 after a Run DMC and Beastie Boys concert I thought it was a good Idea to go the Farmer Browns Ribs on Clybourn St in the Cabrini Green projects of Chicago. Why you ask? Because they had the best ribs, tips, chicken and hot links I have ever had the pleasure of eating. Period! I was 17 and thought I was immortal and by god I was gettin some ribs. I grew up in the city but my SA at 17 was clouded by ignorance. Well I got robbed at knife point for my gold chain and gold class ring. Farmer Browns has since closed. However I will not alter my lifestyle or deprive myself of the finer things in life because of statistics and possibility of crime against me. I will be careful at what times I got to bad areas. Bad decision to go to Cabrini Green after midnight? Yup! Worth it for the ribs? Sounds crazy but hell yes!
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    For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (Sun Tzu) The Art of War

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  5. #274
    Member Array The Dark's Avatar
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    Human existence abounds with potential dangers; fortunately the most catastrophic are also most rare and occur at so low a base rate that there is no way to validly predict them. In fact, the most valid prediction is that they will not occur - the likelihood of a false positive is much higher than a false negative. Still we do not make sch decisions solely based on such probabilities - we also act to increase our comfort, make decisions to prepare for emotional reasons. It is their catastrophic nature that makes them most salient. And, of course, in the case of personal security, there is little cost to a false positive other than the time, expense and so on that is dedicated preparing for an unlikely event. And being prepared does feel better. So, we prepare for the rare yet tragic events to the extent we can - most often because should they occur they are catastrophic and our ability to envision them (and our vicarious exposure to them) leads us to take actions to reduce our concerns. But if one were to live their life by spending every minute of every day preparing for all possible events, then they would not be living life. Personal comfort level with preparedness is central.

    Clearly every person who is going to carry a weapon needs to be proficient at some level with that weapon because if they are not, the likelihood that they will do something stupid with it will outweigh the likelihood they will need or use it for defense - or will do something good with it. But they also need to be prepared for the need to use it and the level of that preparation is often moderated by the prediction of that need. Those whose world of work increases the likelihood of needing it require a higher level of proficiency and more frequent training. Those whose life is less likely to entail this level of risk, may need much less - even if they may choose more. That's the real world; however, the level of anticipation, level of dis-ease and thus estimation of that probability and its consequences, affects this choice.

    The sense of moral superiority attached to how much training one does or their desire to view themselves as a "sheepdog" is unnecessary. The notion that there are only three types of people - wolves, sheep and sheepdogs - makes a complex world simplistic, reflecting a desire to assume a heroic role. As Grossman originally noted, there are those who choose a lifestyle such that, at the level of a society, they serve a guardian function. It is clear that they run to danger...been there done that (I, too, have a DD 214). What I resist is the idea that if you are not guarding the flock, you are a sheep. I think there are sheep with fangs. Yes, we should be alert - even to threats that have no immediate personal relevance if possible. But we should not mistake that for the sheepdog role and I do not consider an armed civilian who does not see himself in that role as a sheep. Sheep freeze and await the slaughter - I suspect that the unsuspecting wolf who attacks any of the armed civilians here will not someone easily slaughtered.
    "To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence." Friedrich Nietzsche

  6. #275
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I'm out. Can't put it any better than this^^^^^^
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  7. #276
    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    I have seen the light. I am signing up for a remedial advanced bayonet class. Where did I store my bayonet for my M1?
    Semper Fi
    "Marines don't surrender-they win or die." from Brute

  8. #277
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    From Jeff Cooper....

    Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician
    I think we can figure out the point he was making.....
    ericb327 likes this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  9. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    Harry, that's exactly why I put in the work, sweat and money to take training classes.
    Scott, any idea how many classes it takes to become a ninja? I'm starting to like the idea: Minnesota Ninja. Maybe I'll be awarded the Medal of Honor like Forrest Gump - the buttocks and a bullet thingy but in reverse.

    Good for you taking care of your loved ones and yourself.

  10. #279
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    I'll add this to that. I think people who smoke, overindulge in alcohol, don't exercise, overeat and/or are obese and think lack of pistol training will likely impact their untimely "death" more than any of the above simply refuse to understand facts.
    I agree.

    But at the same time, I'm reminded of a post that I saw on another Forum.

    In this one - the thread having to do with "combative fitness," one of the participants made a very insightful remark: that yes, he well understood that he's probably way more fit than the overweight competitor that just shot the stage, but it didn't matter, because he still got his rear end licked when it came to shooting. His goal was simple and realistic - he's not looking to beat that other guy in sprinting or in long-distance running, he's just looking to beat him in gun skills.

    ...and people who talk in life-and-death hyperbole about pistol training are simply gun enthusiasts with an overactive imagination.

    Is that delusional?
    Again, I agree.

    But again, at the same time, I also strongly believe that there is no way to determine how death will come to any of our doors.

    Since you've brought up the physical-well-being aspect of the equation, my primary-care physician is a classmate of my father-in-law's. My wife and I, together, the four of us, all went to the same medical school (which means that, despite the years that's passed between our training, we sorta all share the same outlook), and arguably, he's the person who leads the healthiest and lowest-risk lifestyle. Yet, he was very recently suffered a massive stroke (true, he's older than either myself or my wife, but let's put in some others of his age and in my immediate circle of friends and family - he's still the only one who had death knock on his door).

    No matter which examples we personally raise, there's always going to be a counter-argument.

    For me, personally, I see both sides of the debate - but I truly think that the only real-world value to be had is somewhere in the sliding scale that is BETWEEN the most extreme of either sides of the argument. To me, the closer you get to either extreme, the more holes open in your armor when the unlikely scenario of the other extreme is realized as a reality. To me, we as average common-Joe citizens are not preparing for the statistically likely: we're preparing for that one singular and rare event which throws us clearly off the page on which the bell-curve was drawn. Given that singular scenario will be far, far from the norms of what any of us could imagine happening, given that scenario will test us in ways we have not conceived, I don't think that any amount of training or preparation can ever be enough. I could be as physically as strong as Hercules, but fail to prevail to someone who is under the influence of potent chemicals. I could be Wild Bill with my handgun and yet fail to someone who has had years of direct-action and decided to go crazy on a shooting spree. I could be a multi-millionaire and yet lose most of my money overnight due to one bad business decision (and before you ask, yes, I know several of those, a couple of them very, very personally). I could be a Ninja-assassin and yet have a random crazed sniper drop me from a quarter-mile out (while I am unaware that the DC Sniper killed any ninjas, I do imagine there being many ninjas in Home Depot parking lots and random gas-stations across the US, every day ). Life itself holds no guarantees - and I humbly bow down to The Dark's beautiful little essay. I, too, see things his way, that somewhere inside all of these sobering possibilities, I think that we can all hope to be a little better prepared. To be a bit more physically fit every day. To shoot a bit better every day. To save a bit more money. To practice avoidance and deterrence. And so on. The stories of our heroes are of common people who prevail in the most uncommon of circumstances, and while I wish for luck to be on my side when that time comes, I would want to be as prepared for it as I can possibly be - be it with a bit more food in my pantry, a bit more liquid cash/valuables in my stash, being a bit more fit, or being able to shoot better.

    Sure, it's great to have enough ammo when you find yourself in Zombieland. But the first rule is still cardio!
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  11. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    [clip]

    I've been 'shooting' since I was 5 and 'pretending to train' since 1982 (when I got my first permit). By pretending, I mean copying things I saw in magazines and on video. I didn't have the opportunity take professional classes until 2007.

    [ clip]
    I started shooting as a teenager, but (after the military) when the IPSC came to the picture (I was a member of the first IPSC club in America), my main source of training was Leatham's "Shooter Ready" video. I watched the video hundreds of times and attempted to copy his talent at the range and dry firing. It took hundreds of thousands of rounds and plenty of time.

    The ninja schools entered my shooting life much later.

    I think most of my real proficiency (however it's defined by the gurus here) was gleaned from sad places all over the world. The practical shooting competitions facilitated my mastery of firearms (handgun, EBR, and shotgun) handling. It amazing how many extraordinary people one meets while traveling the world. I recall training with a mercenary in Norway as well as the chief instructor of the Israeli Border Police among others, such a Leatham.

    The collective knowledge and experience harvested during the years is what I call my proficiency. Naturally, any six-year-old USPSA kid beats me now, but I still can hit the target (however it's defined) with high certainty regardless of the circumstances.

    We sure are elitist ninjas!

  12. #281
    Member Array SWIll's Avatar
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    This has been an "entertaining and informative" thread for a newbie such as myself to follow. I think I'll go to the BBQ now. My squabbles with my brothers and sister seem so much more unimportant now........
    And thank you all for giving me things to ponder and think about (no sarcasm meant or intended)!
    Mike
    I will rarely post, but will read (and hopefully learn) a lot

  13. #282
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    So, let me get this straight...

    Our lifetime odds of dying as a result of firearm assault are about 1 in 314.

    Our lifetime odds of dying in a car wreck are about 1 in 100.

    Those who train extensively with their handguns care more about their families safety than those of us that don't train for any assault possibility.

    My guess is that those who train for "the zombie apocalypse" don't buckle their loved ones into 5 point harnesses, and put helmets on the passengers in a roll bar equipped "grocery go getter". And, they probably haven't taken any competitive driving classes.

    But, they don't do that because they don't believe in statistics.

    So, essentially, they can justify the handgun training, which they enjoy, but they can't or won't justify the expense of protecting their families from a much more likely catastrophic event.

    That's fine by me, but it really isn't honest, now is it?

    I am prepared to the extent I feel necessary, and competent at that level. I enjoy firing my weapons, both for recreation, and to maintain the level of competency I have determined by careful consideration necessary to defend myself in encounters I am likely to meet.

    Again, to each their own.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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  14. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    So, let me get this straight...

    Our lifetime odds of dying as a result of firearm assault are about 1 in 314.

    Our lifetime odds of dying in a car wreck are about 1 in 100.

    Those who train extensively with their handguns care more about their families safety than those of us that don't train for any assault possibility.

    My guess is that those who train for "the zombie apocalypse" don't buckle their loved ones into 5 point harnesses, and put helmets on the passengers in a roll bar equipped "grocery go getter". And, they probably haven't taken any competitive driving classes.

    But, they don't do that because they don't believe in statistics.

    So, essentially, they can justify the handgun training, which they enjoy, but they can't or won't justify the expense of protecting their families from a much more likely catastrophic event.

    That's fine by me, but it really isn't honest, now is it?

    I am prepared to the extent I feel necessary, and competent at that level. I enjoy firing my weapons, both for recreation, and to maintain the level of competency I have determined by careful consideration necessary to defend myself in encounters I am likely to meet.

    Again, to each their own.
    Oak, nobody ever said that we havnt taken an advanced driving class....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  15. #284
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Oak, nobody ever said that we havnt taken an advanced driving class....
    And, in that course, what protective equipment was provided?

    And, do you provide your passengers with same?

    Oh, and do you practice in your EDD (every day driver) at the nearest track three times as often as you practice your pistol craft?

    Why not?
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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  16. #285
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    So, let me get this straight...

    Our lifetime odds of dying as a result of firearm assault are about 1 in 314.

    Our lifetime odds of dying in a car wreck are about 1 in 100.

    Those who train extensively with their handguns care more about their families safety than those of us that don't train for any assault possibility.

    My guess is that those who train for "the zombie apocalypse" don't buckle their loved ones into 5 point harnesses, and put helmets on the passengers in a roll bar equipped "grocery go getter". And, they probably haven't taken any competitive driving classes.

    But, they don't do that because they don't believe in statistics.

    So, essentially, they can justify the handgun training, which they enjoy, but they can't or won't justify the expense of protecting their families from a much more likely catastrophic event.
    ^ That's definitely one way to read the statistics. But there's another way to read it.

    The way I approach this seeming conundrum starts with the act of arming oneself in preparation for that rather unlikely event - the need to defend oneself or their loved ones against violent crime.

    Given the relative unlikelihood of the event, it would seem logical, then, to ask why would we even bother to arm ourselves towards that purpose. Why would we even participate in a Forum community like this in the first place, then, given that it is "Defensive Carry."

    This is why I say that we're not playing the odds, here. Which, for me, then leads to the next logical leap: that if I've chosen to arm myself for this rather unlikely event, should I then not also train for the brutalities of such an encounter, however unlikely?

    To head back to the car question - would we not put our families in the safest cars we can afford? Would we not research the same of child-restraints? Would we not also do the same for other pieces of the equation - tires, lights, etc. - and indeed, would we not take some defensive driving classes? In truth, some of us have. It's the same as having a fire extinguisher in the house - and knowing how to use it. It's the same as carrying life insurance.

    I guess, to me, the most concrete example of this would be "prepping" - that there's a sliding scale of "what's enough." And truthfully, I think that this depends on the person: what's right for one person may be not enough for another, and may be overkill for the next.

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