Us and them...

This is a discussion on Us and them... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Harryball, congrats on choosing to "train". Good for you. Why is it that your personal choice should somehow be the standard EVERYONE should choose? Personally, ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array PilotAlso's Avatar
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    Harryball, congrats on choosing to "train". Good for you. Why is it that your personal choice should somehow be the standard EVERYONE should choose?

    Personally, I find it absurd that people spend so much time and money getting "training" for ninja, assault team scenarios.

    I can shoot. I know my weapon. I read about real life situations and attempt to make up my own mind on MY course of action.

    I don't trust so-called or self appointed "EXPERTS". Yes I might listen but I'm still going to evaluate what is said based on my own thoughts.

    Let me add this. My opinion is that driving is one of the most dangerous things any of us do. Do all you "TRAINING" proponents also take defensive driving courses? You as a driver have an obligation to be the BEST DRIVER you can be. After all, your family's well being might hinge on how you handle a driving emergency. Wouldn't it be much more cost effective to educate yourself and train for the most dangerous situations you will MOST LIKELY be placed in?

    One other thing to consider when taking numerous "training courses". How would it look to the general public should you ever actually have to shoot someone in self defense? The media would most certainly plaster the front pages with the details of your fascination with shooting someone.

    Think people think!

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array Vaquero 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    I get your point. I have a question, how much training have you had, and do you continue to do so? I understand you are in Law enforcement. That being said, why should a civilian take his/her training any less serious?
    I'm retired LE, and let me tell you, if you shoot twice a year at static targets, from a variety of positions, then you are taking your training as serious as most police officers. That's about all the training that most police officers get. Being a "gun guy," I would go out to the PD range on Friday afternoon for "open shoot," which means they buy the ammo and I shoot until my trigger finger gets sore. But I was lucky to see 4 or 5 other officers there, out of a department of over 1600 officers.

    If someone is the type of person who sees a bad guy behind every tree, and they want to spend hours and hours rolling around in the dirt and practicing reloads, failure drills, weapon transitioning, etc.....hey, more power to them. Does the average civilian need to do that? Probably not. A Glock or a revolver does not require much in the way of training to use effectively.

    I shoot a couple of times per month now, if that. I don't shoot slow fire, I empty my gun in a fast and determined manner, and make good hits. Just like I might have to do while defending my life. I feel like I am reasonably well prepared to handle just about anything that comes my way in my tame civilian travels. Mindset means more than training, as long as you have a basic level of competence with your firearm. After mindset comes circumstance, which is out of our control. The best trained special forces operator can lose to a half literate, poorly trained dirt farmer with an AK, depending on the circumstances. I think some people obsess about survival so much, that they never really learn how to live.
    Slow is smooth.....smooth is fast.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array multistage's Avatar
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    Way I see it, there is a massive no man's land between being competent and being spooked. Some folks think (and act) as though everybody they see is a potential threat. Well, OK. They have evac plans that they run through for their house and maybe even work. They shoot, shoot, and shoot. They think defense every minute of the day, because today could be THE DAY.

    That's just fine. Maybe they live in a high risk area. Maybe they were rolled earlier in life. It's their life to live as they please.

    But not me. I have no problem with those that see the need to train as though BUDS starts next week. I shoot as much as I can for fun and to hone my (meager) skills. But I am not in boot, or see the world as a hot LZ. If I did, I'd move. I do not see life as a challenge to negotiate. I will not act as though everywhere I go is inherently dangerous, else I would not go there. Life is for fun. Yes, it can all come down anywhere and at anytime. But I won't sacrifice enjoying life in order to concentrate on a threat that may or may not be there. Because when the wheels do come off, all you can do is your best. Which, no matter your training level, may or may not be enough. So I go where I want and do what I want. And I do carry a gun, and keep a more watchful eye than most folks I run with. But aside from competition shoots every couple of weeks and range runs every chance I get, I don't see the need for intensive training. That takes away from fun time. Like Glockman said, the average civvie with a decent knowledge of firearms will most likely get out of a jam. I am confident in myself.

    But that's just me. So, bring on the flamethrower.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    I get your point. I have a question, how much training have you had, and do you continue to do so? I understand you are in Law enforcement. That being said, why should a civilian take his/her training any less serious?
    Training. Where to start. Ok...first off, let me give you my definition of training. Training is the application of learned skill sets to a given situation.
    Now, the skill sets represent a certain prerequisite, if you will. Sight alignment, trigger pull, follow thru, stance, reloading, holstering, presentation, ect... As nauseum.
    Now, in and according to our gurus today, there is basic and advanced. And both of these cover a wide variety of situational responses. Many of which have absolutely no practical application to a typical armed encounter a citizen is likely to encounter.
    An example; you are walking thru a parking lot, and a MWAG opens fire. He's shooting at someone, somewhere. You take cover, draw weapon, get a visual on target and wait for THE SHOT.
    I have seen this and similar scenarios used in training classes for private citizens.

    First of all, it is my opinion that anyone who would do this is a damn idiot. Get the he'll out of there! Crawl on your hands and knees behind parked cars if necessary!

    A more likely scenario is you are walking through the parking lot, and a man with a knife/ gun confronts you and wants your money. You decide your best chance of survival is to fight.
    Not only is this a very likely scenario, it happens much more often than a MWAG shooting the hell out of the place.
    And since you know this, you are carrying a hammerless j frame in your pocket and can immediately blast the BG and go about your merry way way, right?
    But wait, it's summer time, and I'm not wearing a jacket. Damn it! They never covered this in class. Can you say brain fart? Better hope you can improvise, and think outside the classroom.

    Training can be generalized, or specific. The problem is that none of it ever works out the way you train.

    Try this; take a night fighting course. Use all your gizmos, WML, laser, and all that stuff. Now, as you confidently engage and vaporize all the paper targets you reveal using your equipment, you should feel confident that anyone who breaks into your house is dead meat right?

    Go home, turn off all the lights. Give your friend a rubber knife, and an airsoft gun. Let him/ her hide and you go look for them, with a simulated weapon or red gun. Tell me how many times you get pelted with those little plastic pellets, or slashed with that rubber knife.

    There are certain skill sets in using a firearm that must be mastered. No doubt about that. However, the vast majority of it is useless, if you do not have what it takes to think outside the box, and classroom.
    When the other party can shoot back, or cut your throat, things are different.

    The only thing my military training did was make me a more efficient killer, which does not mean that it makes me anybetter than a calm, level headed defender who can THINK on the move.

    My LE training is about officer survival when I put myself, as required by my duty in a bad situation. Given the choice, I would not do that, and neither should a citizen.

    Sure, it's good to imagine what could happen, and how to react. But be prepared to need to drastically alter your plans.
    The best defensive training starts between your ears, not your wallet.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
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    At least once a month you always have to have 1 of these high and mighty train train train posts.

    I shoot more in a month than the average cop. But I refuse to devote too much time training for an event that will likely never happen.

    Some take self defense and training too far. A member here who admitted to wiping his butt with his weak side hand for defensive purposes comes to mind.
    "Was there no end to the conspiracy of irrational prejudice against Red Ryder and his peacemaker?"

    Revolvers, “more elegant weapons for a more civilized age.”

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array multistage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rammerjammer View Post
    At least once a month you always have to have 1 of these high and mighty train train train posts.

    I shoot more in a month than the average cop. But I refuse to devote too much time training for an event that will likely never happen.

    Some take self defense and training too far. A member here who admitted to wiping his butt with his weak side hand for defensive purposes comes to mind.
    Now THAT'S devotion!

    I need a beer.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    You won't play statistics, you won't listen to other's opinions. You are right. For you.

    For me, training with a gun is not my idea of a great time. I've done it, I'm competent. I will not spend my spare time and $$$ chasing phantoms.

    If it's your deal, go nuts, have fun. To each their own.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    I will never play with stats, sorry. If you do not do fire drills in your home with your children you are being foolish. If you do not have a plan and train to the plan you have nothing. I understand your point, but I will not play the game of, It probably wont happen to me.
    I know we don't agree that much, but I have to agree 100% with you on this one. While I haven't attended any "formal" training classes, I was taught by my Dad. He has over 25 years in law enforcement and attended just about any kind of training you can think of. A lot of that information was passed on to me over the years, and at this point, I'm "almost" as capable with a handgun as he is.

    I was lucky in the fact that I had an instructor for a Dad. If he hadn't taught me to shoot, I know for a fact I wouldn't be as good as I am today.

    BTW, I do plan to attend a professional course, just as soon as I can get a spot in a Larry Vicker's course!
    Harryball likes this.

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    I don't think that the fact that somebody doesn't train 24/7/365, in and of itself, should be taken as some indicator that they are incompetent with a firearm, a knife or their hands.
    tcox4freedom likes this.
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  11. #25
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I just thought of another example of training gone wrong. Here it is;

    Every year, we train in weapons retention. Part of that training is to disarm someone who has a gun on us, very likely scenario. We partner off with someone and practice the technique. After we " disarm" our partner, we hand the gun back to him/her and start over. We learn this with the weapon pointed at us from the from and back.

    I saw a video, recorded by the cruiser cam of a state trooper, who pulled the driver over. Somehow, the driver got out of the car, and pulled a handgun on the trooper. The trooper did a perfect, text book technique on the subject.
    But do you know what happened next, and I kid you not, he turned around and put the gun right back in the subjects hands, EXACTLY like he did in training!
    The subject stood there with the gun in his hands, looking very bewildered, and then the trooper had an oh " blank"! moment, and did another perfect execution of the technique, except he didn't give it back this time.

    Unintended consequences I guess.
    HotGuns, sgb, Grinder and 3 others like this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    A gun disarm should be an act of significant violence on the person being disarmed. If carried through to its proper conclusion giving the gun back should be the last thing that comes into an officer's mind. It sems to me the entire training paradigm needs tweaking.
    tcox4freedom likes this.
    "People who take an Internet handle of a great warrior, are usually the first to go fetal when crunch time comes." - Me

  13. #27
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    There are those who have not seen enough of the evil in the world to know what they don't know. You can not know what you do know. Telling those who do not know is like telling those who can not see. For if I (they) don't know it,can not see it or feel it, it does not exist. Therefore I have no need to defend from it.

    I see those who have a gun but do not prepare in knowledge to it's use to the best of their ability being little better off than those who don't own one. Most will stand there, in their situation, in awe and wonderment. Afterwards saying there was just nothing I could do. (If they survive)

    Hopefully most will still be alive once they have knowledge to know what is really in the world. And time to prepare, if not then to each his/her own.
    That sounds like it all boils down to responsibility. We all know not many are willing to do that these days.
    Us? We don't get paid to protect ourselves or take responsibilities. Them? They do get paid and some do ultimately pay with their lives or worse. If we didn't look at it as an Us or Them kind of deal, we'd all be on the same team. But it appears that's not in the stars or the history of the world. What does an armed civilian protect? The core of this nation while the others are overseas protecting other interests. Our service members want something to come back home to. "It's not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country".
    Us and them should be we and the enemy. Not us and our own governmental forces. While I agree for the most part with the OP, I think it sheds plenty of light on a problem....one we have not addressed in the past and seem even more unwilling to do so now. Racial segregation was one thing, but apparently that has never completely disappeared. Now we take that a step further? This country is in state of disrepair since nobody has seen fit to maintain it to standards.
    Tell you what.....if the general civilian population's training or preparedness in any way worries you, then start up a militia group in your state. My state's constitution mentions a militia. Those formed in the past have been crushed by the feds.
    Yeah....many live sheltered lives....many don't care beyond their own needs. Personally, I'm not letting any of the complacent or ignorant into my fort to deplete my supplies. Now it's not "us and them", it's me and them. I have no time to worry about others or "them". I have little sympathy for those without responsibility. Training? I feel lucky that I've been trained in the armed forces first, and made the choice to continue training on my own after my contract was fulfilled. Does this make me better than you in any way? Enough to put me on you're "them" side of the list?
    People do expect too much these days to my thinking.
    Training and mindset? It's only a personal thing. Something you cannot expect from others, but feel good about yourself.
    Independence day is close....how many folks you think actually look at that as a day of remembrance and history...and how many look at it as an excuse to disturb the peace, and set grass fires....or a party? I'll guarantee most of the fireworks will be set off in selfish fun without even giving a thought to the meaning of the day. How many can recite the Star Spangled Banner? As a nation....we've lost a lot. Too much in my book. I know we can never recover any of what we had as a nation 200 years ago. Evidence to prove my point? Your post....US and THEM. That's what keeps us all separated.
    Wishing everyone a happy and safe 4th of July (mid-week) holiday.

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Training. Where to start. Ok...first off, let me give you my definition of training. Training is the application of learned skill sets to a given situation.
    Now, the skill sets represent a certain prerequisite, if you will. Sight alignment, trigger pull, follow thru, stance, reloading, holstering, presentation, ect... As nauseum.
    Now, in and according to our gurus today, there is basic and advanced. And both of these cover a wide variety of situational responses. Many of which have absolutely no practical application to a typical armed encounter a citizen is likely to encounter.
    An example; you are walking thru a parking lot, and a MWAG opens fire. He's shooting at someone, somewhere. You take cover, draw weapon, get a visual on target and wait for THE SHOT.
    I have seen this and similar scenarios used in training classes for private citizens.

    First of all, it is my opinion that anyone who would do this is a damn idiot. Get the he'll out of there! Crawl on your hands and knees behind parked cars if necessary!

    A more likely scenario is you are walking through the parking lot, and a man with a knife/ gun confronts you and wants your money. You decide your best chance of survival is to fight.
    Not only is this a very likely scenario, it happens much more often than a MWAG shooting the hell out of the place.
    And since you know this, you are carrying a hammerless j frame in your pocket and can immediately blast the BG and go about your merry way way, right?
    But wait, it's summer time, and I'm not wearing a jacket. Damn it! They never covered this in class. Can you say brain fart? Better hope you can improvise, and think outside the classroom.

    Training can be generalized, or specific. The problem is that none of it ever works out the way you train.

    Try this; take a night fighting course. Use all your gizmos, WML, laser, and all that stuff. Now, as you confidently engage and vaporize all the paper targets you reveal using your equipment, you should feel confident that anyone who breaks into your house is dead meat right?

    Go home, turn off all the lights. Give your friend a rubber knife, and an airsoft gun. Let him/ her hide and you go look for them, with a simulated weapon or red gun. Tell me how many times you get pelted with those little plastic pellets, or slashed with that rubber knife.

    There are certain skill sets in using a firearm that must be mastered. No doubt about that. However, the vast majority of it is useless, if you do not have what it takes to think outside the box, and classroom.
    When the other party can shoot back, or cut your throat, things are different.

    The only thing my military training did was make me a more efficient killer, which does not mean that it makes me anybetter than a calm, level headed defender who can THINK on the move.

    My LE training is about officer survival when I put myself, as required by my duty in a bad situation. Given the choice, I would not do that, and neither should a citizen.

    Sure, it's good to imagine what could happen, and how to react. But be prepared to need to drastically alter your plans.
    The best defensive training starts between your ears, not your wallet.
    Maybe you could run away while someone slaughters innocent people, but I'm sure a large portion of this forum could not. I would think that you, as a LEO, could understand that. You're in harms way every day that you wear that badge, yet you still do it. Why is that? What is the reason you became a LEO?

    As for me, I can't say what I would do in that situation. I'd like to think that I would take that shot, but no one really knows how they'll react in that situation. The best we can do is train for the worst we'll encounter, and hope that training kicks in when we need it.

    Most people can go out and shoot a static target from a stable stance and be happy with their fist-sized slow fire group. I'm not. If I can't land COM shots while moving, I'm not doing good enough.

  15. #29
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    And then there is the case of the officer that got in a shootout at a gas station with a badguy and put him down, but not completley. Officer stopped to pick up his brass...because that's what he was taught to do in training...and got killed by the badguy.

    Its been a long time ago, but how we train determines how we fight.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  16. #30
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey2011 View Post
    Maybe you could run away while someone slaughters innocent people, but I'm sure a large portion of this forum could not. I would think that you, as a LEO, could understand that. You're in harms way every day that you wear that badge, yet you still do it. Why is that? What is the reason you became a LEO?

    As for me, I can't say what I would do in that situation. I'd like to think that I would take that shot, but no one really knows how they'll react in that situation. The best we can do is train for the worst we'll encounter, and hope that training kicks in when we need it.

    Most people can go out and shoot a static target from a stable stance and be happy with their fist-sized slow fire group. I'm not. If I can't land COM shots while moving, I'm not doing good enough.
    Not really sure what you think you are saying by that first sentence. But the bravado BS is just that. I have a DD214 to back up my dedication to this country and my countrymen.

    It is highly possible that you did not understand or grasp the measure of my statement. So, with that possibility I will resist incurring infractions.

    But, it's easy to speak of heroism and facing down a madman on a public forum. But I can tell you from similar experience it comes with a warm sensation running down your leg in one form or the other.
    So if the situation causes me considerable terror, and you believe that to be cowardly, then I'm guilty, as I have learned it well.
    Tayopo and ILoveSigs like this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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