Us and them...

This is a discussion on Us and them... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by TSiWRX ^ That's definitely one way to read the statistics. But there's another way to read it. The way I approach this ...

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  1. #286
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    ^ That's definitely one way to read the statistics. But there's another way to read it.

    The way I approach this seeming conundrum starts with the act of arming oneself in preparation for that rather unlikely event - the need to defend oneself or their loved ones against violent crime.

    Given the relative unlikelihood of the event, it would seem logical, then, to ask why would we even bother to arm ourselves towards that purpose. Why would we even participate in a Forum community like this in the first place, then, given that it is "Defensive Carry."

    This is why I say that we're not playing the odds, here. Which, for me, then leads to the next logical leap: that if I've chosen to arm myself for this rather unlikely event, should I then not also train for the brutalities of such an encounter, however unlikely?

    To head back to the car question - would we not put our families in the safest cars we can afford? Would we not research the same of child-restraints? Would we not also do the same for other pieces of the equation - tires, lights, etc. - and indeed, would we not take some defensive driving classes? In truth, some of us have. It's the same as having a fire extinguisher in the house - and knowing how to use it. It's the same as carrying life insurance.

    I guess, to me, the most concrete example of this would be "prepping" - that there's a sliding scale of "what's enough." And truthfully, I think that this depends on the person: what's right for one person may be not enough for another, and may be overkill for the next.
    Your last paragraph answers the question.

    However, selecting the safest car is no different than selecting your carry piece. It's what suits you.
    But given that you and your family are three times more likely to expire in your vehicle than you are to be involved in a deadly shootout, you should practice the maneuvers you learned in your advanced driving course three times as often as you practice force on force drills. And, based on the "logic" of training for the worst case scenario, you should outfit your EDD to sustain a deadly crash, and your passengers should have the same safety equipment you had in the course.

    In the end, you are using the justification of preparedness to allow you to do that which you enjoy, but not allowing others the same justification for what they prefer to do or not do. And, in many posts, deriding those who do not feel the compulsion you do to pursue YOUR regimen.
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    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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  3. #287
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Your last paragraph answers the question.

    However, selecting the safest car is no different than selecting your carry piece. It's what suits you.
    But given that you and your family are three times more likely to expire in your vehicle than you are to be involved in a deadly shootout, you should practice the maneuvers you learned in your advanced driving course three times as often as you practice force on force drills. And, based on the "logic" of training for the worst case scenario, you should outfit your EDD to sustain a deadly crash, and your passengers should have the same safety equipment you had in the course.

    In the end, you are using the justification of preparedness to allow you to do that which you enjoy, but not allowing others the same justification for what they prefer to do or not do. And, in many posts, deriding those who do not feel the compulsion you do to pursue YOUR regimen.
    I took multiple court mandated driver safety courses in the late 80s and 90s in Chicago!
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  4. #288
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericb327 View Post
    I took multiple court mandated driver safety courses in the late 80s and 90s in Chicago!
    I did too! Only in Iowa, back when I was young and dumb, and suffered from a lead foot.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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  5. #289
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Whether consciously or not, everyone does some sort of relative risk and vulnerability assessment based on their situation and acts (or not) according to their own relative comfort level. Based on my situation, I'd say I'm at a pretty low relative risk these days. Financial executive, gated community with 24/7 security patrols and video surveilance, monitored home security system, doing the young kids family stuff, don't go to bars and such anymore. Relatively speaking, my risk level is much lower than at other times of my life and lower than someone that is an LEO for example. Although my own simplistic risk assessment is relatively low, my vulnerability analysis considering mitigating measures (i.e. OC spray, CCW, proficiency, etc.) is also low.

    The bottom line is everyone on some level says to themselves "my relative risk level is x and I'm taking x measures in my life." I have friends that do not own a firearm. One buddy bought one and his wife absolutely had a total caniption fit and wouldn't stop until it was out of the house. He sold it. He's 50 years old and never needed it and figures his life would be more miserable with one than his relative risk without one. His decision to make. If you feel your situation calls for the defcon 4 level of tacticool training, then that's your call. Personally, I just enjoy shooting guns and it seems to come very naturally to me. I don't run around doing drop and roll drills or anything while doing it, but I do practice one hand, off hand, point shooting, rapid fire, moving from target to target, close range, long range,etc...but mostly because it's fun.
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  6. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    I'd say I'm at a pretty low relative risk these days. Financial executive, gated community with 24/7 security patrols and video surveilance, monitored home security system...
    And here I though you were a good-old country boy. SWVA wear off that fast?

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  7. #291
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    In the end, you are using the justification of preparedness to allow you to do that which you enjoy, but not allowing others the same justification for what they prefer to do or not do. And, in many posts, deriding those who do not feel the compulsion you do to pursue YOUR regimen.
    Let's not forget weekly fire/weather drills, either!

    I definitely agree with your assessment above - but it bears validity in this thread going the other way, too. For as many who seemed to look down on those who have not had the magical "enough" training, there are also those who are convinced that doing anything beyond what is necessary to receive one's state-allowed concealed-carry license or otherwise pass a basic competency test is equivalent to blood-lust, when it comes to the simple fact that being prepared, no matter how little above the average, is undeniably better than not (but contrary to the insistence of some, it does not guaranty entry into the Ninja League...well, at least not until you achieve Level 46).

    In the end, it comes down to that individual:

    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    Whether consciously or not, everyone does some sort of relative risk and vulnerability assessment based on their situation and acts (or not) according to their own relative comfort level.

  8. #292
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Just read a piece where a 14-15 year old boy defended his home against a home invasion. Shot guy, and the perp damn near died. He used his dads handgun. Damn glad he didn't read some of these posts, he'd been dead for sure if he knew he had no chance.

    Happened in Phoenix Arizona. Google it.
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  9. #293
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    And here I though you were a good-old country boy. SWVA wear off that fast?

    That's funny....everyone here says, "Well, you really are a good ol' country boy!" I believe my relative risk was actually much lower living in rural Pulaski County, Virginia (and Pulaski County has its fair share of issues) but I figured out real quick that if you're going to live here you need the gated security patrolled community and security system. It's a much more densely populated, more urban culture...with all of the additional people issues to go with it. You can take the hillbilly out of the hills, but you can't take the hills out of the hillbilly. I miss them there hills something terrible.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
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    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  10. #294
    Ex Member Array MNgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    [Clip] If you feel your situation calls for the defcon 4 level of tacticool training, then that's your call. Personally, I just enjoy shooting guns and it seems to come very naturally to me. I don't run around doing drop and roll drills or anything while doing it, but I do practice one hand, off hand, point shooting, rapid fire, moving from target to target, close range, long range,etc...but mostly because it's fun.
    Damn, there I thought one-hand practice, off hand, point shooting, rapid fire, moving from target to target, close range, long range,etc.. is part of the DEFCON 2 level tacticool training.

    My mistake, I'm not living inside golden gates protected by others.

  11. #295
    Ex Member Array MNgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Just read a piece where a 14-15 year old boy defended his home against a home invasion. Shot guy, and the perp damn near died. He used his dads handgun. Damn glad he didn't read some of these posts, he'd been dead for sure if he knew he had no chance.

    Happened in Phoenix Arizona. Google it.
    Old news.

    Your pretentious allegation makes sense, though, so many our best operators die every day from SEALs to Rangers, with an occasional SWAT (DEFCON 1 level) operator kicking down the wrong door while committing civil forfeiture abuses. Not to mention your highly trained cops around the country.

    You ever got the coagulated blood off your booths?

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  12. #296
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNgunner View Post
    ...My mistake, I'm not living inside golden gates protected by others.
    Again, part of the choices we all make based on our relative risk and comfort level. When I moved here, I assessed the risk and chose a gated and patrolled community. I chose to have a security system installed. Conscious decisions I made and willingly paid a premium to have. Those are no guarantees, but they don't hurt.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  13. #297
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Whew. I made it through another night. I didn't sleep with my shoulder rig on, and I didn't low crawl to the bathroom when I had to hit the head twice, but I made it. God was watching over me...
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  14. #298
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    MNgunner, I don't wear booths. But you reference it like it's something to joke about or jab at. Very poor taste, and anyone who truly understood that would not talk that way.

    Eventually the sheep in wolves clothing shows itself.
    Chad Rogers likes this.
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  15. #299
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    I just had a thought come to mind and I wonder how much of this discussion is on what we see advanced training being. If all you know and have seen is MT training then I would agree doing much of it would be worthless.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  16. #300
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    MNgunner, I don't wear booths. But you reference it like it's something to joke about or jab at. Very poor taste, and anyone who truly understood that would not talk that way.

    Eventually the sheep in wolves clothing shows itself.
    And thus my signature line...
    "People who take an Internet handle of a great warrior, are usually the first to go fetal when crunch time comes." - Me

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