Us and them...

This is a discussion on Us and them... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by oakchas So, let me get this straight... Our lifetime odds of dying as a result of firearm assault are about 1 in ...

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  1. #301
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    So, let me get this straight...

    Our lifetime odds of dying as a result of firearm assault are about 1 in 314.
    Our lifetime odds of dying in a car wreck are about 1 in 100.

    Those who train extensively with their handguns care more about their families safety than those of us that don't train...
    If you factor in your PERSONAL demographics, those possibilities are waaaaay more remote. If you are NOT an African American male between 18 and 34, live in an upscale community, and don't engage in extralegal activities, those odds swing even more dramatically in your favor.

    Sad, but true.

    Ultimately, the cost of living is dying, and everyone gets to pay. If you want to maximize your longevity, it's best to play the odds in your favor. Also, ensure you have a plan to take care of your familoy when (not "if") you die. My father died without a plan, and my teenage years were fraught with insecurity and fear.
    Last edited by MadMac; July 5th, 2012 at 09:59 AM.

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  3. #302
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    And now we know that a signature line makes you ubber prepared,no wander training is so over-rated,WOW,thanks C.R.,I wish I had just made mine up too,but one is my teams call-out when we were assigned to SATCOM,the other came with my present job.If only I had known I could make one up instead of earning it in real "Crunch Time",so where did you get your sig.line again?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    And thus my signature line...

  4. #303
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    And while we're here.... we are still here, aren't we?

    There really is a benefit to training beyond what is merely necessary to obtain a permit... and maybe even more than some quick draw practice, move and shoot at paper targets, misfeed drills, off hand shooting, and all the other basic skills... It is this... FOF training gives you one thing training in the basics does not give you, gives you one thing that sitting through a bulletproof mind seminar by Grossman will not give you...

    And that is the knowledge that you can actually pull the trigger and "Stop the Threat" (or kill the adversary)...



    Has oak gone full circle and joined "the dark side?"

    First he says that more training above the basics, just to a level of competency, is all that is needed... Now he says you've got to get FOF training... or you ain't worth your salt...

    Well, yes and no... If you know in your "heart of hearts" that you can take another life without hesitation... especially if yours is on the line... then maybe you don't need some FOF training... But once you know it... you know it. You need to have an epiphany that your life is more valuable than the bad guy's. And you have to lose some basic human compassion...

    You have to know that when faced with another who has no compunction about taking your life to get what he wants... You can shoot him until the "threat is stopped"... until he is down and not moving aggressively and you are absolutely certain he is no longer a threat... and you have to know that this probably means he's dead or dying...

    That is something we all say we can do... else, (honestly) we really shouldn't be carrying in the first place... if we don't know that we actually can take another life in defense of our own, then the likelihood is that our own weapon could be used against us.

    But, with that knowledge, and the basics... you will probably win out in the most likely criminal confrontations you may encounter... which are well short of the zombie apocalypse that some constantly train for...

    Food for thought:
    The Truth About Killing

    The above is episode 1... you can look up the others on you tube if you wish... worth the time.
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  5. #304
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    And while we're here.... we are still here, aren't we?
    300+ replies. 6200+ views. This is still THE go to thread.

    Like a moth to a flame...
    "People who take an Internet handle of a great warrior, are usually the first to go fetal when crunch time comes." - Me

  6. #305
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    300+ replies. 6200+ views. This is still THE go to thread.

    Like a moth to a flame...
    It's an important "go to" thread because it drives at the heart of why we carry. So much here is written about minutia such as bullet ballistics, holsters, etc.

    The key issue for ALL people who choose to carry is to understand why we do so. No matter how we talk around the issue, it always comes back to central theme of personal risk management. It seems many here are just discovering the art of using statistical likely outcomes to make more informed decisions.

    You're doing this already in some form or fashion. You're either doing it with emotion and anecdote, or with statistical likelihood and reason.

  7. #306
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Just read a piece where a 14-15 year old boy defended his home against a home invasion. Shot guy, and the perp damn near died. He used his dads handgun. Damn glad he didn't read some of these posts, he'd been dead for sure if he knew he had no chance.

    Happened in Phoenix Arizona. Google it.
    I only see about two people taking it to that extreme here. The rest are advocating what works for you, but you do need some.

    As pointed out before though, how do you know he had no training? I teach 4H shooting sports and have kids as young as 9 in the class. Safety is pounded into there heads as the main goal, but there is a certain subtle push for accuracy. You'd be surprised at how well some of those kids can shoot, with anything from a pellet pistol to a 1911. Chances are that if he knew where his Dad's handgun was and how to operate it, he did have some form of training. Obviously he didn't attend a $5000 advanced combat pistol course, but not everyone here is advocating that.

    The general consensus is that you need to find what works for you, but don't just buy the gun and never practice with it. If you can practice once a month and maintain a sharp edge on the basics, then good for you. If not, practice more frequently. Advanced courses are definitely a good idea, especially for someone with little firearms experience, but they aren't totally necessary.

  8. #307
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    It's an important "go to" thread because it drives at the heart of why we carry. So much here is written about minutia such as bullet ballistics, holsters, etc.

    The key issue for ALL people who choose to carry is to understand why we do so. No matter how we talk around the issue, it always comes back to central theme of personal risk management. It seems many here are just discovering the art of using statistical likely outcomes to make more informed decisions.

    You're doing this already in some form or fashion. You're either doing it with emotion and anecdote, or with statistical likelihood and reason.
    True enough... and there is the possibility that there truly will be a Zombie Apocalypse, Armageddon, or one or all the other doomsday scenarios. Why, you could be sitting at home and "the Posse" (of One Second After fame) could roll up to your door... and you better be prepared to defend yourself or be "et".

    But training for those possibilities (eventualities, in the minds of some) borders on OCD. (which the Mayo Clinic defines as:"Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) is an anxiety disorder characterized by unreasonable thoughts and fears (obsessions) that lead you to do repetitive behaviors (compulsions).")
    Politicians, take note of Colorado 9/10/2013.
    "You are elected to service, not power.
    Your job is to "serve us" not to lord power over us."
    Me, 9/11/13

  9. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    Personally I want better training than supplied by the .gov, based on what I've seen and experienced.

    But that's just me...
    +1 Being in the military you have to train to the lowest standard for all the artards....Because, people find it hard to drop a mag and rack the slide to make sure your weapon is clear then they have a ND, which is why these people ruin it for the rest of us having to carry with no round in the chamber while inside the wire... and most people stuck on the FOB never see the range there whole deployment. But same goes to people in the Infantry, MPs etc
    “What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pike

  10. #309
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guardmt View Post
    +1 Being in the military you have to train to the lowest standard for all the artards....Because, people find it hard to drop a mag and rack the slide to make sure your weapon is clear then they have a ND, which is why these people ruin it for the rest of us having to carry with no round in the chamber while inside the wire... and most people stuck on the FOB never see the range there whole deployment. But same goes to people in the Infantry, MPs etc
    What does your GI Joe/Call of Duty video game talk have to do with civilian concealed carry? I don't get your point.

  11. #310
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    And while we're here.... we are still here, aren't we?

    There really is a benefit to training beyond what is merely necessary to obtain a permit... and maybe even more than some quick draw practice, move and shoot at paper targets, misfeed drills, off hand shooting, and all the other basic skills... It is this... FOF training gives you one thing training in the basics does not give you, gives you one thing that sitting through a bulletproof mind seminar by Grossman will not give you...

    And that is the knowledge that you can actually pull the trigger and "Stop the Threat" (or kill the adversary)...



    Has oak gone full circle and joined "the dark side?"

    First he says that more training above the basics, just to a level of competency, is all that is needed... Now he says you've got to get FOF training... or you ain't worth your salt...

    Well, yes and no... If you know in your "heart of hearts" that you can take another life without hesitation... especially if yours is on the line... then maybe you don't need some FOF training... But once you know it... you know it. You need to have an epiphany that your life is more valuable than the bad guy's. And you have to lose some basic human compassion...

    You have to know that when faced with another who has no compunction about taking your life to get what he wants... You can shoot him until the "threat is stopped"... until he is down and not moving aggressively and you are absolutely certain he is no longer a threat... and you have to know that this probably means he's dead or dying...

    That is something we all say we can do... else, (honestly) we really shouldn't be carrying in the first place... if we don't know that we actually can take another life in defense of our own, then the likelihood is that our own weapon could be used against us.

    But, with that knowledge, and the basics... you will probably win out in the most likely criminal confrontations you may encounter... which are well short of the zombie apocalypse that some constantly train for...

    Food for thought:
    The Truth About Killing

    The above is episode 1... you can look up the others on you tube if you wish... worth the time.
    Oak, this has to be the best post you have made in this thread. Proper mindset, proper skill set, all good stuff. My only complaint is the Zombie apocalypse reference. Im not training for anything like that. As Im sure most here are not. This thread has nothing to do with the Alex Jones types. Outside of that, your post hit the nail on the head...
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  12. #311
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Life should be about balance. Balance priorities, risks, time, money, etc. Personal protection should also be about balance. Extremes on either end with most anything is usually unwise.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  13. #312
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    I hope I am preaching to the choir and don't offend anyone too much. However, I'm a bit concerned with the "us" sometimes supporting (or maybe buying into) the talking points of the "them" position.

    1) "Need" in general:

    I'm a bit concerned with the focus on "need." In the question of "us v. them", a focus on "need" tends to be a trait of the antis. For too long it was the major tool of denying rights to the "us" of this great land.

    FWIIW, I'm a big supported of Constitutional Carry.

    Here in Virginia (like many other States), we got rid of some of the prior restraint on RKBA when we got rid on "may issue" -- i.e., we (the "us") no longer a need to prove the "need" to carry. Let's rid ourselves of the rest of the prior restraint on all those who can legally possess a firearm by advancing to Constitutional Carry.

    As I have posted before,

    What does “need” have to do with the American way?

    Do we actually “need”:

    • Cars that can exceed the speed limit, sometimes more than twice the max speed limit?
    • SUV & trucks that can haul or tow far more than some owners will ever haul or tow, again often well above the speed limit?
    • More vehicles registered to private owners than there are licensed drivers?
    • The square footage of the average new single-family detached home?
    • Theater sized TVs in those homes?
    • Cell phones for instant gratification – especially while driving?
    • All the rest of the high tech devices to provide instant gratification – excuse me, connectivity / communication?
    • Devices w/ 4G connections, when many consumers would not recognize 4G even if 4G hit him or her in face?
    • To be answering those devices in restaurants, churches, and all sort of public places?
    • A plethora of fast food chains and local joints serving far more salt, fat and calories in a meal than a body needs in a day?
    • Store shelf after store shelf and freezers full of high-salt, high-fat, high-caloric, caffeine added, adulterated foods?
    • Store shelves stacked with beer after beer brand, including many from around the world?
    • Bin after bin of fresh out-of-season and non-local produce flown in from around the world?
    • A fishing pole unless to catch fish for food in order to survive?
    • Fire extinguishers -- as they are difficult to use in an emergency? (Why not just call the fire department. They can get there as quick as an LEO. When seconds count what are a few minutes, anyway?)
    • A first aid kit? (Shouldn't injuries be tended to by a professional and the ambulance can get there as quick as an LEO. If that's quick enough to stop a crime, why not for injuries?)


    Once we as a society are actually committed to functioning on the bases of “need”, I’ll consider “need” relative to the availability of and carrying a gun or guns. In the meantime, I’ll work on the same level of “want” (not “need”) that we-as-a-society operate on — across the board.

    I don't get up in the morning and think about the likely "need" to carry. I carry so that if the "need" arises (even against all expectations) I am prepared to meet that "need."

    As much as the antis demand that there must be a demonstrated "need", I wonder if some of us aren't buying into their mantra, to some extent.

    2) Need for training:

    I also worry about the "requirement" for training tone of some comments.

    For the record, I'm on the side of "There should be no prior restraints on ANY constitutional Right -- including the RKBA and to defend yourself with a firearm. NO constitutionally protected rights should even require a permit or license or training or proficiency test to exercise."

    I do agree that training should be encouraged -- however, requirements are another issue, IMHO.

    Sure, it is wise/prudent/judicious to have training. I train and practice regularly. However, the antis use the issue of required training as a club to restrict the RKBA. I really don't care if that young lad had formal training, was trained at home or whatever. He should not have been/be denied the opportunity to save his and his siblings lives because someone somewhere wants to demand a government designed/required training regiment or government designed/required proficiency-test to have access to a firearm.

    Try apply all the anti-RKBA folks' demands for pro-permit or license or pro-required-training or pro-required-proficiency test to any other constitutionally protected rights and it becomes clear why they don't fly there and should not apply to 2A.

    A government-issued permit (for a fee) or license or a government designed/required training or government designed/required proficiency-test to exercise religion? Yeah, Right!!

    A government-issued permit or license (for a fee) or license or a government designed/required training or government designed/required proficiency-test to exercise the right of (free???) speech? Yeah, Right!!

    A government-issued permit or license (for a fee) or license or a government designed/required training or government designed/required proficiency-test to exercise the right of a (free???) press? Yeah, Right!!

    A government-issued permit or license (for a fee) or license or a government designed/required training or government designed/required proficiency-test before you can assemble, or petition the Government for a redress of grievances? Yeah, Right!!

    The hoplophobic's version of the BofR are 1A, 3A, 4A, 5A,... 10A.

    All the arguments for restrictions on carry (e.g., “may issue”, OKs from the chief LEO, prior training, proficiency testing, etc are exactly the same as those that the hoplophobic use for restricting carry in the crazy patchwork quilt of hurdles to be cleared before exercising and to continue the exercise of our RKBA.

    However, there is no evidence that there is any higher rate of gun related problems in those States with little or no such nonsense, as there is in those States with draconian restrictions on the 2A.

    The bottom line is that all these prior-restraints do not work. The blood baths that the antis hope that their manta might stop sometime in the future are happening, right now, in the “unarmed victim zones” as they continue to preach their trust-us-we’ll-take-care-of-you.

    OTOH, in places where the prior-restraints are being reduced crime is being reduced.
    Last edited by DaveH; July 5th, 2012 at 11:22 PM. Reason: typos, spellos, proofos, etc
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  14. #313
    Member Array guardmt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    What does your GI Joe/Call of Duty video game talk have to do with civilian concealed carry? I don't get your point.
    Video game talk? More like real life. I was just supporting a comment from a forum member, because he commented on the point the original poster made on the military being trained, and I agreed with the comment he made with the forum member and was just adding on to it...
    “What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pike

  15. #314
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Oak, this has to be the best post you have made in this thread. Proper mindset, proper skill set, all good stuff. My only complaint is the Zombie apocalypse reference. Im not training for anything like that. As Im sure most here are not. This thread has nothing to do with the Alex Jones types. Outside of that, your post hit the nail on the head...
    nah, it ain't the best post I've made in this thread...

    I agree (and have said so repeatedly, in this thread and others) that some training above and beyond the requisites for getting a PCW (CCW, or whatever your state's acronym is) is a good idea... The level of that training is determined by what you want to do, how far you want to go... If you want to play FOF games, great! go for it... but if you don't, don't.

    Don't justify your consistent and constant training by saying you MUST prepare for the worst case scenario... (up to, and perhaps including, the zombie apocalypse).

    Do say.... "This is how I train, for some it may seem overkill, but it works for me." You can even tell us why it makes sense for you, that you really enjoy it, and how much fun you have doing it. But you cannot insist that any who don't train to your level are doomed (or insinuate it)... You can't say that anyone who fails to plan and practice rolling in the dirt, shooting at each other in paintball FOF exercises, is ill prepared.

    Yes, it's possible that some who have permits to carry never do actually carry.. some may have never even loaded their gun and fired it... (some states (including ours) do not require you to actually handle a firearm to get a permit... and, while I am more or less a Constitutionalist, I do believe if you are going out into society carrying a weapon, you ought to have a clue what you might do with it... and what you might not.

    OTOH, there are those who have been to some courses... and learned all the "bywords and code phrases" of self defense with a firearm... and repeat those on their own video recording while provoking attacks on themselves, hoping that the vid will prove they did everything right... "Gee, I followed the ROE.. I should be justified." Sorry buddy, you went to class.. but you still ain't got a clue... Think it over for 40 years... (recent case in TX.)

    I am a licensed private pilot.... not just a sport pilot... but I am not IFR rated, I don't have my commercial or ATP rating... so I fly based on my skill set and knowledge base... I assess the risks before I go into the air... and if it's questionable, I don't go...

    The same applies to carry for most folks... they assess the situation they are likely to come up against, train for it... and do their best to avoid anything that is beyond their "pay grade." But, just as a private pilot could, in an emergency, fly out of IFR conditions, or land a big transport because the pilot croaked and the copilot is in shock over the loss.... (really now, what is this, Airplane?)... Those who have had some training in the use of their firearms can prevail even if they're out of their depth.
    Politicians, take note of Colorado 9/10/2013.
    "You are elected to service, not power.
    Your job is to "serve us" not to lord power over us."
    Me, 9/11/13

  16. #315
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post

    A government-issued permit (for a fee) or license or a government designed/required training or government designed/required proficiency-test to exercise religion? Yeah, Right!!
    IRS form 501c to do much of anything as a "church."


    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    A government-issued permit or license (for a fee) or license or a government designed/required training or government designed/required proficiency-test to exercise the right of (free???) speech? Yeah, Right!!
    Parade permits for many assemblies required.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    A government-issued permit or license (for a fee) or license or a government designed/required training or government designed/required proficiency-test to exercise the right of a (free???) press? Yeah, Right!!
    Yeah, you're right there, not so much required of the press, not even honesty...

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    A government-issued permit or license (for a fee) or license or a government designed/required training or government designed/required proficiency-test before you can assemble, or petition the Government for a redress of grievances? Yeah, Right!!
    Parade permit for assembly... and then of course... you have to be noticed... and unless you waving large sums of money, ain't a pol in the world gonna notice you... Gotta have permission to sue the gubmint... BTW, to get any meaningful redress of grievances...
    Politicians, take note of Colorado 9/10/2013.
    "You are elected to service, not power.
    Your job is to "serve us" not to lord power over us."
    Me, 9/11/13

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