Us and them...

[glockman10mm]

good post DaveH. I agree.

Another thing I would like to add, is that in reality, I think we are all on the same team here. I didn't perceive Harryballs thread to be an intentionally decisive thread. There are many different variables that we all bring to the table that influence our drive and attitude for training issues associated with carrying a defensive sidearm.

These cause emotions to run high, and sometimes it causes any man who's got a pair to bristle up if they feel their opinion is attacked by another. Many things can be hidden or taken wrong, or lost entirely in reading words. Then the snowball effects kick in.

Perhaps, and in all probability, if we were all gathered around a campfire, or other social setting, the humor or tongue- in- cheek responses would not become the hard lines they are taken for here. The candor, facial expressions and overall personal interaction would allow a more social, lighter conversation.

Also age, and environmental influences, coupled with experiences play a huge role in our decisions on the subject.

For me, as I get older, something's get less important, and others more important. Simply put, our priorities in life have a tendency to change. Seasoning has a way of changing our tastes for everything.

As a past and long time student of martial arts, which covers a wide variety of skills if one properly defines it as " war arts", I have learned that we all peak out. Eventually, our physcical skills deteriorate but our knowledge continues to go up.
At some point they cross. I don't know of anyone that has crossed that decline of physical capability, and continued rise of wisdom that would trade the latter for the first, given the choice.

So i think we are all in agreement, just coming from different places in our lives. No right, no wrong, just where we are at right now.

So, I apologize if I have spoken harshly, or offended anyone during the duration of this thread. It was not my intent, but I do reserve the right to get "bristled up" on occasion, but I don't take anything personally.

But as the warrior part of everyone declines, we are left with our knowledge and wisdom. So be it.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Harryball]

good post DaveH. I agree.

Another thing I would like to add, is that in reality, I think we are all on the same team here. I didn't perceive Harryballs thread to be an intentionally decisive thread. There are many different variables that we all bring to the table that influence our drive and attitude for training issues associated with carrying a defensive sidearm.

These cause emotions to run high, and sometimes it causes any man who's got a pair to bristle up if they feel their opinion is attacked by another. Many things can be hidden or taken wrong, or lost entirely in reading words. Then the snowball effects kick in.

Perhaps, and in all probability, if we were all gathered around a campfire, or other social setting, the humor or tongue- in- cheek responses would not become the hard lines they are taken for here. The candor, facial expressions and overall personal interaction would allow a more social, lighter conversation.

Also age, and environmental influences, coupled with experiences play a huge role in our decisions on the subject.

For me, as I get older, something's get less important, and others more important. Simply put, our priorities in life have a tendency to change. Seasoning has a way of changing our tastes for everything.

As a past and long time student of martial arts, which covers a wide variety of skills if one properly defines it as " war arts", I have learned that we all peak out. Eventually, our physcical skills deteriorate but our knowledge continues to go up.
At some point they cross. I don't know of anyone that has crossed that decline of physical capability, and continued rise of wisdom that would trade the latter for the first, given the choice.

So i think we are all in agreement, just coming from different places in our lives. No right, no wrong, just where we are at right now.

So, I apologize if I have spoken harshly, or offended anyone during the duration of this thread. It was not my intent, but I do reserve the right to get "bristled up" on occasion, but I don't take anything personally.

But as the warrior part of everyone declines, we are left with our knowledge and wisdom. So be it.

You are right about the reasons I started the thread, There are no absolutes with anything. I still believe in the responsibility of carrying a firearm as Im sure most others believe. Its what I believe in my heart to be the right path for me (and others if they choose). I havnt reached the point you talk about in my life yet. I evaluate my life often. At this point I still am a strong believer in training and mindset preparation and will continue to advocate those thoughts....Thanks for sharing G-man....

[TSiWRX]

Damn, glockman10mm, I think that's perhaps the best thing all /thread.

In all honesty, I think if we did just that - get everyone together for a couple of days of shooting and FoF and just some general good-times - we truly would see the picture that you'd just painted.

[oakchas]

Amen, Gman, amen!

[First Sgt]

HI GUYS!!!! I just had a birthday on July 1st, so have been gone for a bit....HAVE I MISSED ANYTHING IMPORTANT HERE?

I'll just have to go back and read all 319 preceding posts I guess...sigh...so much for relaxing...

Aww..maybe I better just stand on my "signature" and call it a nite.....Nite guys!!!

[QKShooter]

Portions of this thread are incredibly good. Other areas of it are a complete and total integrated mess.
With all of my years of self-taught Moderation training and everyday real-world Moderator experience...I wouldn't know where to begin cleaning it up.

[Smitty901]

good post DaveH. I agree.

Another thing I would like to add, is that in reality, I think we are all on the same team here. I didn't perceive Harryballs thread to be an intentionally decisive thread. There are many different variables that we all bring to the table that influence our drive and attitude for training issues associated with carrying a defensive sidearm.

These cause emotions to run high, and sometimes it causes any man who's got a pair to bristle up if they feel their opinion is attacked by another. Many things can be hidden or taken wrong, or lost entirely in reading words. Then the snowball effects kick in.

Perhaps, and in all probability, if we were all gathered around a campfire, or other social setting, the humor or tongue- in- cheek responses would not become the hard lines they are taken for here. The candor, facial expressions and overall personal interaction would allow a more social, lighter conversation.

Also age, and environmental influences, coupled with experiences play a huge role in our decisions on the subject.

For me, as I get older, something's get less important, and others more important. Simply put, our priorities in life have a tendency to change. Seasoning has a way of changing our tastes for everything.

As a past and long time student of martial arts, which covers a wide variety of skills if one properly defines it as " war arts", I have learned that we all peak out. Eventually, our physcical skills deteriorate but our knowledge continues to go up.
At some point they cross. I don't know of anyone that has crossed that decline of physical capability, and continued rise of wisdom that would trade the latter for the first, given the choice.

So i think we are all in agreement, just coming from different places in our lives. No right, no wrong, just where we are at right now.

So, I apologize if I have spoken harshly, or offended anyone during the duration of this thread. It was not my intent, but I do reserve the right to get "bristled up" on occasion, but I don't take anything personally.

But as the warrior part of everyone declines, we are left with our knowledge and wisdom. So be it.

There is good reason that the older Warriors are the leaders, it not that we decline it is how we see the bigger picture.
The OP talks about training well how in the heck can a 1Sg disagree with that?
As you age your perspective changes on just about everything. I spent a lot of time training both required and on my own time. Today not so much.
Truth be know much of that time was wasted training for stuff that was not going to happen, to many what ifs . The training that did come into play was the basics.
Training does not always prepare you for whats is coming it just helps you think you are.
The only time in my life I will ever use a firearm against another human again will be in SD. It will not be a great distances , it will require that I be able to draw my weapon and with out any delay put 2-3 round in the center of the threat. Nothing more.
Tomorrow for the first time in a long while, My son and another SFC on leave are coming over we have laid out a rather large number of hand guns to shoot. Training you could call it that , but we are doing it for fun and because it is what we did when they were very young. What will happen tomorrow is they will out shoot the old man that will be a major change from years past. They are the gate keeps now.
The ones wife will also be trying different ones to see what she would like for her first CC.
Not everyone can spend their life training, not everyone needs to shoot the eye out at 50 yards on the run. What they need to do is shoot enough so they can stop the threat quickly at close range.

[AZJD1968]

Remember, trained or untrained......
Cop accidentally shoots himself - YouTube

It can happen to the best of us.

[oakchas]

Portions of this thread are incredibly good. Other areas of it are a complete and total integrated mess.
With all of my years of self-taught Moderation training and everyday real-world Moderator experience...I wouldn't know where to begin cleaning it up.

The "mess" is integrated, so leave it be. Points were made, counterpoints made, with examples from other disciplines, which correlate, sort of... And, in all a good discussion...

And a good time was had by all!

[ScottM]

Again, part of the choices we all make based on our relative risk and comfort level...Conscious decisions I made and willingly paid a premium to have. Those are no guarantees, but they don't hurt.

Your comments very well mirror my reasoning for taking all the advanced training classes I have.

[BugDude]

^^^ We all make many choices across a broad spectrum of things (where we live, what we drive, what we carry, how we train, etc.) which represent a balance between acceptable risks and priorities. What is an acceptable level of risk or perhaps a priority for one may not be for another. Pretty much applies to a lot of areas of life.

[tacman605]

Portions of this thread are incredibly good. Other areas of it are a complete and total integrated mess.
With all of my years of self-taught Moderation training and everyday real-world Moderator experience...I wouldn't know where to begin cleaning it up.

Yep what oakchas said. It's a little late now.

[MNgunner]

MNgunner, I don't wear booths. But you reference it like it's something to joke about or jab at. Very poor taste, and anyone who truly understood that would not talk that way. Eventually the sheep in wolves clothing shows itself.

I doubt no serious person would introduce that (stepping over bloody bodies in Zimbabwe) as the gauge to either comprehending the evil or need to carry, and then upping the ante with asinine "have you been to Rhodesia or South-Africa?" Very elitists and very poor taste.

You've no idea where people have been and what they have been experiencing.

As to successful firearms use without training that proves your point: Ape With AK-47 - YouTube

What's it like to step over bodies, and have your boots stick in pools of coagulated blood? There are a few who know. Many who talk of such things as the great evil that exists have never really seen it, but they perceive it to be all around, and speak as though they have.

Myself, I see the world we live in as pretty safe. Everyday the vast majority of Americans will never even come close to real evil. And many who do will successfully defend themselves with a firearm with little or no training.

Additionally, many of the so called victims of crime are thugs engaging in activity with other undesiable people and get the short end of the stick.

When you have seen real death and destruction, or have visited countries such as Zimbabwe or South Africa, then you will know what it is like to not be able to sleep at night, or suffer heat exhaustion because you have to keep your windows rolled up and doors locked while driving thru a town.

I really think that too many people get caught up in the " evil, badguys" and such on these forums sometimes and get a little out there.
I am not directing this at the OP or any responding member here, just my thoughts on the entire " gotta train" thing.

Get a good quality piece, learn how to use and maintain it, and enjoy your life.

[glockman10mm]

I doubt no serious person would introduce that (stepping over bloody bodies in Zimbabwe) as the gauge to either comprehending the evil or need to carry, and then upping the ante with asinine "have you been to Rhodesia or South-Africa?" Very elitists and very poor taste.

You've no idea where people have been and what they have been experiencing.

As to successful firearms use without training that proves your point: Ape With AK-47 - YouTube

Once again, I said Zimbabwe, not Rhodesia. This is the second time you have misquoted what I said, which leaves me to believe that you simply cannot grasp the context of my example. Perhaps it was lost in your " translation".

None the less, I'll leave it at that. There's only do much you can do.
Carry on.

[tacman605]

My god this thread is still alive and going? What is the record for number of posts?

HB you did good on this one.

In reference to some links that were posted from a home defense site. I have sent an email to try to get some more history on the folks/articles as they were a bit brief.

To follow up on my statement that the very site that the links came from here is a quote from the very same site:

A firearm will not carry the day in every instance. It is not a talisman or death ray. You have to be trained to use it. You have to be trained to develop the mindset to use it if you must. And you have to be trained to understand when you are legally authorized to use deadly force. You cannot use it to scare assailants because many of them are mentally hardened or deranged enough that they will not be scared.

A level of training is different for everyone and not everyone has it or wants it I realize that and that is not the point of this quote.