Us and them...

This is a discussion on Us and them... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by oakchas You won't play statistics, you won't listen to other's opinions. You are right. For you. For me, training with a gun ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    You won't play statistics, you won't listen to other's opinions. You are right. For you.

    For me, training with a gun is not my idea of a great time. I've done it, I'm competent. I will not spend my spare time and $$$ chasing phantoms.

    If it's your deal, go nuts, have fun. To each their own.
    Oak, what I posted was only an opinion. Im not disagreeing with everyone out there. I wanted to see what others thought. So far, It has been a good discussion. Thats all. Dont take it personal, its not meant that way....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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  3. #47
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    gunfacts.info police shoot innocent people 11% of the time. CCers do it 2% of the time. I'm not bashing police, just citing the information from gunfacts.info (which I have not vetted, but their material is cited)

    I would say that this is due to Police Officers being involved in more shootings than CC holders rather than lack of training.

    As I have stated on here before we all live in different worlds, have different jobs and different backgrounds so our concept of training and what we train for will be just as varied. If you are happy to carry a 5 shot revolver and train out to a max of 7 yards because that is what the stats say and that is what makes you feel comfortable and safe, great but to others that may be woefully undertrained.

    Where you live does not have a whole lot to do with things. "I live in a nice, upscale, peaceful neighborhood" is great to say but the bad guys looking to rob, rape or do whatever are not gonna turn around and break into a ghetto apartment they are looking for a nice, upscale, peaceful neighborhood. We routinely travel outside our peaceful neighborhoods in everyday life and travel to where "those people", whomever they may be, live, work, play and commit crimes so whether you think your neighborhood is safe or not you go places that are not as safe daily.
    I live and work in a world of violence where people die enmasse at least three times a week so my idea of training is different from others. HB and I talk three to four times a week and a lot of it has to do with firearms and training. He teaches a lot of classes and the trend that his students are relaying is "we want more". Do you have to train for the zombie hoards? Probably not. Do you have to carry 6 mags, three knives, OC spray and so on? Nope. It all depends on you and what you can do.

    Myself and others in life and on this forum choose to train to a higher level than most, I am not saying however everyone should do as I do, it won't work. Not stating this to any one person but many people are lazy, they want something for nothing. Want to lose weight? No problem eat what you want, don't exercise and just take this pill. Want to survive a lethal force encounter? No problem buy a gun, go through the mandated training (if any) and hocus, pocus, whamo you are protected.

    Either way it makes no difference to me it is your life. Myself and others will always advocate training. People will spend $1500 on golf clubs and greens fees to go out and hit a ball on the weekend but complain about a $10 box of ammo to go train with. It doesn't make sense to me but again not my life.

    Some have mentioned "Everyone drives but do you take an advanced driving course?" it is the most dangerous thing you do. Ummmmm yeah. I have ridden Harleys for years but I still will take a basic and advanced riding course when home just to sharpen my skills and be a better rider. The thing you have to remember is that all these things you train or practice for you can get do over's so to speak. You can cheat on your golf score, redo a missed putt, drop your bike at a stoplight and all you suffer is a minute of embarrassment but you screw up in a SD situation you might not come home. The stats say you are not likely to die if you are involved in a SD situation. You know why? Because emergency response and medical care has improved so much that the statistics say you will probably live.

    Oh joy, that is comforting but I, first of all, don't want to test the theory and secondly I don't want to be the odd man out on the stats with people saying "Well you know that one guy in a hundred?" Well that must have been him.

    I am not a paranoid person. I believe when the man upstairs is ready for me he will simply call no matter how much training I have or how prepared I have made myself. Do I still do fire drills at my house? Do I instruct Lory and the kids what to do if something happens when we are out and I have to draw my weapon? You bet. Do I stand in the middle of the street with an oncoming bus quoting the stats saying odds are he will see me and odds are the brakes are good and so on. Not hardly.

    When I am home I actually have to raise my level of situational awareness. Remember what concerns you may not concern me, what hurts you may not hurt me and so on. I have listened to gunfire, explosions, rocket attacks, eaten meals with a long gun on the floor beside me all while trying not to spill food on my body armor (They have a version of a wasp here that can detect a particle of food from a mile it seems and they consider whomever has it on them to be a meal) so I am not really concerned about some ghetto gangster bumming for change in the parking lot of wal mart. Do I completely ignore him? no but he is not armed with and AK or RPG so he is not really high on my radar.

    We all have different backgrounds, concerns, disabilities, skill levels and self disipline. Train however you want, prepare however you want that is your choice but at that moment in time when something occurs that you have not trained for or even thought about you will find quickly that you will not rise to your level of training, you will fall to your level of training that you have mastered. But to each his own.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  4. #48
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowman View Post
    What you heard came from an FBI report...

    "Among other things, the data reveal that most would-be cop killers:
    --show signs of being armed that officers miss;
    --have more experience using deadly force in "street combat" than their intended victims;
    --practice with firearms more often and shoot more accurately;"....
    Force Science News
    No, I was not referring the FBI Report. But that's interesting. I was referring to training and marksmanship.
    For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (Sun Tzu) The Art of War

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  5. #49
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    You won't play statistics, you won't listen to other's opinions. You are right. For you.

    For me, training with a gun is not my idea of a great time. I've done it, I'm competent. I will not spend my spare time and $$$ chasing phantoms.

    If it's your deal, go nuts, have fun. To each their own.
    Quoted for emphasis. +1

    Saying you don't live your life by statistics is like saying you can choose whether or not to breathe. You choose what route to take home to avoid traffic, you decide to stop at the pub on the way home based on if you think your spouse will be annoyed. These are all crude statistical analyses. You can either let emotion and anecdote dictate your actions, or logic and reason. We each do a mix of both each and every day. How you respond is your choice.

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit51 View Post


    I know you are not the one that said it...but I just got to ask....what was his point in doing this. Muscle control? Manual dexterity? I am not kidding. What purpose did he give. Thanks in advance for answering this. If I don't get a explanation or reason (whatever the guy's was)...it will bother me all night and the hubby will give me this look when he comes back and I ask him.
    If I remember correctly, his reasoning for it was so that he could have his strong side hand to have his gun in it ready to go while pooping. That is paranoia going too far.

    This same member is active in this thread. Now you just have to guess who.
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  7. #51
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Harryball, Tacman605,

    Oh, I hear what you're saying... Training is good... and I agree (as I said) to a point. Especially any training above what you get (if you get) for the permit in the first place. That can be dry fire practice in your basement based on a vid you watch... or a 40 hour intensive course in whoever today's expert du jour is.

    But Harry (and tac), I'm not a super hero out to defend every innocent life that I come across. I'm not a warrior for God and country fighting enemies abroad.

    There may come a time when I experience being a part of something like the (somewhat) recent IHOP shooting, but I'll leave it to the Suarez bunch to take the active shooter out at 100 meters with their scope mounted Glocks. If they miss, or the shooter gets into the IHOP I'm in; I'll have heard the gunfire, taken cover, and planned my defense from there. If my actions there save my own life, great. If I save a few citizens in the course of my actions, gravy. But my main defense will be of my own hide... And I will do all in my power to accomplish that... And, frankly, that may be to get out a back door and call in air support... Some may choose to follow me... some may not...

    There may come a time when our country...
    a:revolts
    or
    B:is under siege from without or from within (Gangland story of military training in US gangs comes to mind) and warrior-like tactics and military training will come in handy.

    I did not serve in any armed forces... (thanks to those who did and who do.)

    I believe "When you get angry enough, grab your rifle and run outside. If you're the only one there, it's not time yet!"

    When enough decent citizens get so fed up that they are out on their porches with their guns, I'll be with 'em. I'm not a Founding Father. But if I lived in a neighborhood in say, Detroit; you can bet I'd be willing to be part of a neighborhood watch team... ARMED. You can also be assured that I won't be video taping and saying "Oh, now they're gonna kill me... I'm standing my ground here... I'm in fear for my life." And, you can be confident that I won't pursue any suspicious punks, only to have my head pounded into the concrete. But my presence will be felt, and maybe my neighborhood would be a little safer.

    Look back to the Rodney King riots (I miss Gloves) ... I'm a "Korean shop owner" You won't be looting me... or mine... But I'm not going out to save the rest of South Central... Sorry, that's not my pay grade.

    But if none of those things happen.... and I run into the typical street thug, with a knife (or maybe even a gun)... I'm going to do my level best to win.... and that can mean I'm tossin' some money at him... or I'm firing my weapon. or both... The goal is to walk away... just like any landing is a good landing, if you can walk away from it.

    I rely on my own good sense to determine a plan of attack or defense. You can not train for every conceivable threat. You can not prepare for every conceivable catastrophe. You can have the basics, you can have the knowledge, you can have the wits; to come through any situation.
    Rats!
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    I suppose

  8. #52
    P95
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    Quote Originally Posted by rammerjammer View Post
    If I remember correctly, his reasoning for it was so that he could have his strong side hand to have his gun in it ready to go while pooping. That is paranoia going too far.

    This same member is active in this thread. Now you just have to guess who.
    It's paranoid people like this that will shoot their own family one day by accident of they are not careful thinking they were the bad guys lurking behind the couch.

  9. #53
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    Great post Harryball,If you think that just having a firearm makes you prepared for any situation,then you have already lost the game!And there are a lot of folks that think this way,and as for the comment on where you live,even Mayberry had crime,so,noone(theres that word that's not real) is completely safe.I train like I shoot,and shoot like I train,no round is waisted,

  10. #54
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post
    Actually its a peaceful neighborhood except for a few crackheads. It's definitely not South side of Chicago....yes...it definitely depends on where you live. I don't walk out the door everyday with five extra mags, and two or three knives paranoid that everyone I meet is a potential bad guy who is out to kill me.
    Neither do most here. Paranoid and prepared are two different things. I carry two spare mags, one knife and my firearm, does that make me paranoid or does it make me prepared. I think you should take a class somewhere to find out what you might be lacking. It is a real eye opener....
    First Sgt likes this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  11. #55
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rammerjammer View Post
    If I remember correctly, his reasoning for it was so that he could have his strong side hand to have his gun in it ready to go while pooping. That is paranoia going too far.

    This same member is active in this thread. Now you just have to guess who.
    Thank you for answering. I am glad you did, because that was not what I expected. It is rather strange, but to each their own.
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
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    A armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one has to back it up with his life.
    Robert Heinlein

  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockrocker View Post
    Great post Harryball,If you think that just having a firearm makes you prepared for any situation,then you have already lost the game!And there are a lot of folks that think this way,and as for the comment on where you live,even Mayberry had crime,so,noone(theres that word that's not real) is completely safe.I train like I shoot,and shoot like I train,no round is waisted,
    The presence of "crime" in no way implies the need to shoot someone. In MOST communities, the average citizens is far more likely to need a defibrillator than a firearm. I am NOT saying not to carry, or be prepared, or whatever, but get some perspective. If you want to spend a good deal of your waking life dreaming of and preparing to shoot a "bad guy", enjoy your fantasies and your gun hobby. But don't try to fool others into believing their Hobson's choice is to either carry/train or die young.

  13. #57
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    So you don't carry like you are going to be in a fight everyday?,then how can you call that prepared?On duty I carry a G23,2 G27's(strong and weak side)Benchmade Griptilian weak side thigh pocket,Stryder strong side pocket,my only difference off duty is I only carry 1 bug,and a Streamlight pt-2l,WHY?!!,because even after all I've seen I can't predict the thugs thoughts,I can't set the time when he's going to attack(opportunity),and I can't tell if or when my stong side might go down,you might want to rethink your present carry sit,a lot of attacks are now involving multiple threats.
    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post
    Actually its a peaceful neighborhood except for a few crackheads. It's definitely not South side of Chicago....yes...it definitely depends on where you live. I don't walk out the door everyday with five extra mags, and two or three knives paranoid that everyone I meet is a potential bad guy who is out to kill me.

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    glockrocker, you are not very prepared. There used to be another guy on here who carried up to six firearms, and many knives. He would think you were taking this way to lightly, lol.

    I just can't get my head around any scenario, that I'm going to face where I will need that type of firepower, except in a war zone.
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    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    It's not that I need that firepower,it's what I can get my hand on when I need it,I prepare for both hands,and may never need them,hope I don't,but I don't want my dying thought to be "If I only had my gun"!
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    glockrocker, you are not very prepared. There used to be another guy on here who carried up to six firearms, and many knives. He would think you were taking this way to lightly, lol.

    I just can't get my head around any scenario, that I'm going to face where I will need that type of firepower, except in a war zone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glockrocker View Post
    It's not that I need that firepower,it's what I can get my hand on when I need it,I prepare for both hands,and may never need them,hope I don't,but I don't want my dying thought to be "If I only had my gun"!
    Hopefully, you never have that regret. My sister died at 51 never needing a firearm. Her dying thought was, "I wish I had never started with cigarettes."

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