Us and them...

This is a discussion on Us and them... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tacman605 P95 glad you are entertained, I like to make people happy and anytime you want some real entertainment come on over ...

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  1. #91
    Member Array PilotAlso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    P95 glad you are entertained, I like to make people happy and anytime you want some real entertainment come on over and visit me.

    In case you have not noticed I don't live in a fantasy world I live and work in the war zones of the world providing security for the DoD and DoS where my personal skill level and proficiency with my weapons keeps myself and others alive but I don't expect you to even come close to understanding that since you think the "Warrior Mindset" is such a scary thing.
    My fantasy world consists of about coming home and seeing my kids, Lory, riding the Harleys and actually doing some training and shooting for myself instead of teaching others. I happen to like to train and to teach whether it is working with a SWAT team, Lory to ride a Harley, the kids how to shoot a .22 or going to a school myself to learn something new or practice old skills. If you don't want to train and improve don't as I said it is your life not mine.

    What you stated as sarcasm I do every damn day. I check my parameter before leaving the bunker that I live in, check in with the Explosive Detector Dogs at the gate to make sure they have not had any hits, and check in with my coworkers to let them know I am out and about in case of one of the many 57mm rockets fired at us happens to hit my vehicle.

    So continue to live in your world and I will live in mine and who knows maybe someday our paths will cross.
    Herein is the disconnect. Tac, your world is vastly different then even a TINY portion of the CC holders. Your life is indeed different than mine, a retired firefighter/paramedic. I don't train with a weapon as much as you would because, in my reasoning, I don't require it. However, I am very anal about training for my avocation, FLYING. My airplane and flying are my passion and I take it very seriously. My families well being is indeed at stake every time I assume control of my airplane while they are along.

    I take SD seriously otherwise I wouldn't bother with these forums but I've prioritized my life's dangers and getting into a drawn out firefight isn't high on that list. Could it happen, yes (although my fight would only consume the 7 shots I'd get from my EDC). I'll take my chances and direct more focus on reasonable possibilities that I can control.
    Tayopo likes this.

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  3. #92
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    I will respond to several posts in one so please follow the bouncing ball.....

    Eric he is not kidding and GlockRocker please don't tell on me.

    Simon I have and do compete in matches when I can. The main thing is use them for what they are worth. IDPA has rules that don't make a lot of sense on the the street i.e. the mag pouch cannot be forward of the hip. If I carry my mag pouches forward of my hip if real life then I should be able to do it in a match you have to be careful not to get caught up in the gamesmanship of it all. Use it for the value of being semi stressed by the clock and competition. Use it to test gear and tactics (what they will allow you to use anyway) and use your carry gun and gear, again if allowed. Above all don't go to win go to learn.

    PilotAlso you do not go to a class to be told by an expert what is going to happen, you go to a class to learn to react to what might happen. He does not know anymore than you what is going to happen. He can give you experience of past events that have happened to him or he has direct knowledge of. He can tell you how he or someone else responded and what worked and what didn't and then show you how to do what worked. In order to repeat what worked under stress you have to practice it under stress over and over again that is simply how the brain works.

    As far as training being used against you, I simply have to say that you are wrong. If you are involved in a SD situation yes it will be questioned by someone no matter what you do, but to be able to articulate why you did action A, B, C, and have the training to back it up will and has saved more than one person on more than one occasion.

    Everything in life is based on making people paranoid in one way or another from "Protect your car's engine with our oil, or face the consequences later" to "Take this vitamin to save your bone mass before you collapse in a heap of goo". Some firearms schools are no different they use bold media tactics to get you to come and learn what they have to teach inspiring fear of failure if you don't attend and use their tactics or they use your own ego against you "Train here and we will teach you how to shoot better than a Navy Seal or a SWAT cop".
    Is this the right way? No and I will avoid any school that used "You will die in the street unless you use this method". There are folks out there that know what they are doing and can show you a method of doing it better that may in fact save your life, but again train or not it is up to you.


    My common sense tells me that professional thieves would rather just steal stuff and leave. Assaulting someone would attract too much attention and not make money.

    Ummmmmmm....yep you are correct.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  4. #93
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneAz2Risk View Post
    Get some training from a Police Professional not some wanna be who got a certificate from a mail order website. Knowing how to shoot under pressure (drills) ,reload and operate a flash light while shooting your weapon are key skills. When panic sets in skills diminish even in professional gun operators. If you don't train at all your skills will be "0" and you will stand frozen with fear and indecisiveness. Your reaction time will pass and the BG will have the advantage.
    No, get training from somebody...

    Cops are trained (by Police Professionals)... and then again... Cops trained by them have been known to miss their target in real life upwards of 85% of the time... And, when acting under the color of law, if any innocent bystanders are hit, they are compensated... usually from the taxpayer's deep pockets.

    Sure, there are wannabe's in every field... especially those that revolve around fear (or preparedness, if you prefer). Caveat Emptor.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
    __________________________________________________
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams

  5. #94
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    I think of the tactical training classes about like I think of the concealed carry badges that are offered for sale at some gun shows and in the back of some magazines. I am not LE, so my first defense is to avoid trouble. My second defense is to flee trouble. My third defense is to put a solid object between me and trouble and aim for trouble's CNS. A LEO does not have the luxury of the first two defenses. We pay them to go hang out where trouble lives, find the trouble, get in the trouble's face, and remove the trouble from society--of course, all without getting injured and without violating the trouble's civil rights. That is what sets us CC guys way apart from LEOs and why LEOs require training and CC guys can and do survive quite handily with a little range time and a healthy dose of common sense.

    Still, if you like tactical training and want to spend money that way, go for it. Just don't go around trying to convince others that it gives you a better chance of surviving a trip to Wally World than any other armed Joe Bag-o-donuts. Just like a lifted Jeep Wrangler 4x4, though way awesomer, doesn't do any better getting to the Wally World than a Toyota Camry about 99.995% of the time. :-P
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

  6. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    I will respond to several posts in one so please follow the bouncing ball.....

    Eric he is not kidding and GlockRocker please don't tell on me.

    Simon I have and do compete in matches when I can. The main thing is use them for what they are worth. IDPA has rules that don't make a lot of sense on the the street i.e. the mag pouch cannot be forward of the hip. If I carry my mag pouches forward of my hip if real life then I should be able to do it in a match you have to be careful not to get caught up in the gamesmanship of it all. Use it for the value of being semi stressed by the clock and competition. Use it to test gear and tactics (what they will allow you to use anyway) and use your carry gun and gear, again if allowed. Above all don't go to win go to learn.

    PilotAlso you do not go to a class to be told by an expert what is going to happen, you go to a class to learn to react to what might happen. He does not know anymore than you what is going to happen. He can give you experience of past events that have happened to him or he has direct knowledge of. He can tell you how he or someone else responded and what worked and what didn't and then show you how to do what worked. In order to repeat what worked under stress you have to practice it under stress over and over again that is simply how the brain works.

    As far as training being used against you, I simply have to say that you are wrong. If you are involved in a SD situation yes it will be questioned by someone no matter what you do, but to be able to articulate why you did action A, B, C, and have the training to back it up will and has saved more than one person on more than one occasion.

    Everything in life is based on making people paranoid in one way or another from "Protect your car's engine with our oil, or face the consequences later" to "Take this vitamin to save your bone mass before you collapse in a heap of goo". Some firearms schools are no different they use bold media tactics to get you to come and learn what they have to teach inspiring fear of failure if you don't attend and use their tactics or they use your own ego against you "Train here and we will teach you how to shoot better than a Navy Seal or a SWAT cop".
    Is this the right way? No and I will avoid any school that used "You will die in the street unless you use this method". There are folks out there that know what they are doing and can show you a method of doing it better that may in fact save your life, but again train or not it is up to you.


    My common sense tells me that professional thieves would rather just steal stuff and leave. Assaulting someone would attract too much attention and not make money.

    Ummmmmmm....yep you are correct.

    Here again is the disconnect.

    I can do everything suggested as being classroom only benefits by simply reading and evaluating. I don't need to sit in a class and have an "expert" do the evaluating for me. Maybe you and others do. That's fine by me.

    Again, if I were in your shoes I'd train for all I'm worth. Your shoes don't fit my feet so don't imply that I will suffer horrible consequences if I don't wear them.

    I respectfully disagree: I am not "wrong" on my thoughts regarding the press and prosecutors using a shooters past against him. It will be a factor that is closely evaluated. Just because you were in-the-right (by your personal or training standards) doesn't mean you're not going to jail. Sometimes perception is king.

    Thinking you will be able to explain your side of the story as to why you've done all that "military/swat type training" (my imagined headlines) is pretty hopeful. It has been proven over and over in recent incidents, the press doesn't care about truth. It's about sensationalism to gain readership/viewers. Think public opinion doesn't play a role in prosecutors' decisions? Take a look to Florida.

  7. #96
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    your world is vastly different then even a TINY portion of the CC holders


    Pilot. This is the exact thing I said in a previous post we all come from different jobs, places, backgrounds and so on so what is everyday life to me is advanced training to someone else.

    Your passion is flying so you train and learn to be the best at it you can be because as you stated your families lives are in your hands everytime you take off. In your job as a firefighter, if you ran the pumper or other trucks, you knew how to do it backwards and forwards under stress that was your job. As a medic you could talk on the radio and intubate while bouncing in the back of the truck and thought nothing of it.

    My passions are God, family, guns and harleys. As I stated I am not a paranoid person, I am not a Tier One SF sniper, scuba certified jumpmaster. I simply do a job and a big part of that job is being able to use firearms to the best of my ability. To do that I have to maintain a certain level of profciency with my weapons. I see and hear weekly the excuses when I take guys to the range. "Well haven't shot in awhile might have to warm up" "I don't understand something must have happened to my M4, Glock, AK I don't shoot like this".
    Could it be you don't dry fire, practice reloading drills, draw from the holster, get into a firing position and snap in before going to the range? As I have said here before you will not dictate the conditions of a lethal force encounter, the other guy will. You will simply react to what he does. There will be no warm ups, oops let me start over or wait a minutes. Just like when you are flying and you realize when the engine sputters and dies you forgot to get fuel not much you can do about it right then but look for a soft spot to land.

    Not everyone will train to a higher level and maybe they don't need to but the bad thing is if they train to only the absolute basic, this is all I have to know level they are only cheating themselves. A punk with a .99 cent walmart knife may just beat them. Remember you do not want to have to sink to the other guys level in a SD confrontation whether it be with fists, knives or guns. When you do you are now in his world and he will beat you with experience everytime. You have to be better than the other guy.
    ericb327 and tcox4freedom like this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  8. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    I don't think that the fact that somebody doesn't train 24/7/365, in and of itself, should be taken as some indicator that they are incompetent with a firearm, a knife or their hands.
    or unwilling or unqualified to use it, etc. The most important SD weapon, should the s hit the fan, is the same as the most important safety weapon ... the brain. And while iteration and rehearsal condition the brain to respond a certain way under certain circumstances, they won't make a hero out of a choker or a gunman out of a coward. For my money, you are what you are. Either you can shoot a gun or you can't. When somebody comes up behind you and puts a .45 in your ear, it really doesn't matter how much "training" you've done or how many GI Joe camps you've been to. This is my opinion ... don't bother telling me I'm "wrong" because it's not a True-False situation. It's opinion, but unlike the OP, I don't believe mine is right for everybody.

  9. #98
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Life is all about balance. And everybody's balance meter is not the same as everybody else's.

    There was a time in my life I trained frequently and with intensity. I'm just not at that place in my life right now in my closing in on my 60s age. I am comfortable maintaining the relatively sharp edge I have. Not a perfect edge, but a relatively sharp one that I am okay with and willing to bank on.
    tcox4freedom likes this.
    "People who take an Internet handle of a great warrior, are usually the first to go fetal when crunch time comes." - Me

  10. #99
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    Tac,

    For the most part we agree... but... no matter how well you train, no matter how skilled you are... there is someone who can best you... and maybe it won't even be anywhere near a fair fight... He may make you look like a rank amateur...

    Unfortunately it remains a fact that sometimes even the guys in the white hats lose... I hate when that happens... show me a gun stuck in the ground, with a helmet on the stock, and boots in front of it... and I can almost guarantee the wind will come up and blow some dust in my eye.... show me a badge with a black band around it... or a Cairns & Bro over a folded turnout coat... same thing...

    People who put themselves at risk for the general public, or for the country as a whole... have earned my unwavering gratitude and respect... And sometimes even that can be misplaced...
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
    __________________________________________________
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams

  11. #100
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    For the most part we agree... but... no matter how well you train, no matter how skilled you are... there is someone who can best you... and maybe it won't even be anywhere near a fair fight... He may make you look like a rank amateur...
    We train to try and thwart this, you are right, any rank amateur can end your day. I want to make sure that I have the best opportunity to not allow that to happen. I understand that there is still no guarantee I will come out on top, but I will not stop......

    It's opinion, but unlike the OP, I don't believe mine is right for everybody.
    I never said it was right for everyone. You must have read something into it. To each his own.....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  12. #101
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    Oakchas you are absolutely correct an amatuer can tattoo a professional's butt at any given moment, it just happens and not much you can do about it, but it does not mean I will not train to the highest level I can to weed out the pros and semi pros who happen to show up.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  13. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    I will respond to several posts in one so please follow the bouncing ball.....

    Eric he is not kidding and GlockRocker please don't tell on me.

    Simon I have and do compete in matches when I can. The main thing is use them for what they are worth. IDPA has rules that don't make a lot of sense on the the street i.e. the mag pouch cannot be forward of the hip. If I carry my mag pouches forward of my hip if real life then I should be able to do it in a match you have to be careful not to get caught up in the gamesmanship of it all. Use it for the value of being semi stressed by the clock and competition. Use it to test gear and tactics (what they will allow you to use anyway) and use your carry gun and gear, again if allowed. Above all don't go to win go to learn.

    PilotAlso you do not go to a class to be told by an expert what is going to happen, you go to a class to learn to react to what might happen. He does not know anymore than you what is going to happen. He can give you experience of past events that have happened to him or he has direct knowledge of. He can tell you how he or someone else responded and what worked and what didn't and then show you how to do what worked. In order to repeat what worked under stress you have to practice it under stress over and over again that is simply how the brain works.

    As far as training being used against you, I simply have to say that you are wrong. If you are involved in a SD situation yes it will be questioned by someone no matter what you do, but to be able to articulate why you did action A, B, C, and have the training to back it up will and has saved more than one person on more than one occasion.

    Everything in life is based on making people paranoid in one way or another from "Protect your car's engine with our oil, or face the consequences later" to "Take this vitamin to save your bone mass before you collapse in a heap of goo". Some firearms schools are no different they use bold media tactics to get you to come and learn what they have to teach inspiring fear of failure if you don't attend and use their tactics or they use your own ego against you "Train here and we will teach you how to shoot better than a Navy Seal or a SWAT cop".
    Is this the right way? No and I will avoid any school that used "You will die in the street unless you use this method". There are folks out there that know what they are doing and can show you a method of doing it better that may in fact save your life, but again train or not it is up to you.


    My common sense tells me that professional thieves would rather just steal stuff and leave. Assaulting someone would attract too much attention and not make money.

    Ummmmmmm....yep you are correct.

  14. #103
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    We train to try and thwart this, you are right, any rank amateur can end your day. I want to make sure that I have the best opportunity to not allow that to happen. I understand that there is still no guarantee I will come out on top, but I will not stop......



    I never said it was right for everyone. You must have read something into it. To each his own.....
    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Oakchas you are absolutely correct an amatuer can tattoo a professional's butt at any given moment, it just happens and not much you can do about it, but it does not mean I will not train to the highest level I can to weed out the pros and semi pros who happen to show up.
    Sure, an amateur can beat you on one day out of a thousand.... or a hundred thousand... But I'm talking about the guy who has trained MORE than you.... is MORE prepared than you.... is MORE vicious than you... and can make you look like an (unlucky and dead) amateur.

    He's out there... and he may come across your path... and he may not... but he exists. He might be on your side... I hope he's not the enemy...
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
    __________________________________________________
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams

  15. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I've no clue what the part in bold refers to.
    I'm sorry I did not provide a link for you. I assume people read all the posts prior to commenting. My mistake. Here it comes:

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    What's it like to step over bodies, and have your boots stick in pools of coagulated blood? There are a few who know. Many who talk of such things as the great evil that exists have never really seen it, but they perceive it to be all around, and speak as though they have.
    That help?

    MNG

  16. #105
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Sure, an amateur can beat you on one day out of a thousand.... or a hundred thousand... But I'm talking about the guy who has trained MORE than you.... is MORE prepared than you.... is MORE vicious than you... and can make you look like an (unlucky and dead) amateur.

    He's out there... and he may come across your path... and he may not... but he exists. He might be on your side... I hope he's not the enemy...
    Hence the reason we train, and train as ofter as we do. Everyone has to make a choice and live with that choice. I do professional training 4-5 times per year and train and practice 3-5 times per week. When the wife and kids are in bed, Im dry firing, practicing my holster work, working on malfunctions. The people you speak of are worse case scenario, so train to it. JMO...
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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