Us and them...

This is a discussion on Us and them... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; this thread bothers me. from the title, to the often acrimonious exchanges between participants. it expresses a tone that i have, thankfully, not seen much ...

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  1. #121
    Senior Member Array sensei2's Avatar
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    this thread bothers me. from the title, to the often acrimonious exchanges between participants. it expresses a tone that i have, thankfully, not seen much of on this site, and that is the, "i'm right, and anyone who disagrees with me is foolish, if not worse."

    i'm not going to give my own point of view on these issues, because, for me, these details are not the issue. what IS the issue is the right of people to hold a different opinion from me without getting savaged as a fool of one sort or another.

    so far as i'm concerned, any gun-carrying, honest, law-abiding citizen (or gun-carrying, honest, law-abiding NON-citizen, for that matter), is OK by me.



    "He drew a circle that shut me out - Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout. But love and I had the wit to win: We drew a circle and took him In!" Edwin Markham

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  3. #122
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Just out of curiosity, just for the hell of it, can anyone here that attends training, by this I mean civilian training geared towards defensive carry, point out or articulate what they think they can do better better than someone who does not train as often?

    Is there anything, that you can specifically point out, or feel that you have learned in taking these " training classes", that leads you to think that you are more proficient at something than someone who does not attend regular formal classes?
    Running the gun under stress.

    Why do I know?

    Because I was - until only very, very recently - one of those "first timers" who'd never taken a class before.

    Because I continue to try to bring my friends - some very experienced shooters who practice often in their own homes or at the range - to such classes.

    Because I've both witnessed what other new students do (as one glaring example, one gentleman repeatedly indexed his cell-phone during emergency reloads) as well as what I have done wrong (my first time with a true double-feed malfunction, I did not use sufficient force to tear back the slide, and believe that the gun needed to be 'un-screwed' off-line, my instructor corrected me - this same error occurred to a line-mate during another class, and I returned the cosmic favor by, in-turn, showing him what he did wrong).

    Don't get me wrong.

    I do -NOT- believe that such "training classes" are the be-all and end-all.

    I very much believe in the value of self-directed work. I dry-fire practice. I do a lot of drills on my own. I'd like to think of myself as a pretty honest person, but even so, it's just not the same. Even with a timer's buzzer working against me and the feedback of airsoft or another training system such as the SIRT, there's still something missing.

    At the same time, I also firmly believe that there is a level of stress that is unique to competition shooting, and that specific type of stress can breed increased speed and efficiency of both shooting as well as manipulations.

    I firmly believe that - particularly in the civilian market - we need to take these "training classes" off the pedestals that they have been raised upon, and place more emphasis on more individualized and skills-specific training [To wit: why is it that in any other sporting endeavor, at the high end, one-on-one tutelage is the norm rather than the exception?].

    I furthermore believe most fervently that martial training needs to be integrated, that to rely solely upon firearms skills is to focus on the one glimmer of hope in the darkest and gravest of situations, and that it is not realistic, especially in the context of the armed citizen who is carrying for what is ostensibly self or home defense. In addition, I believe that such physical training should not be seen as only for the able-bodied and young, and that, instead, the elderly and physically handicapped should all the more be trained in physical techniques that can give them an edge in a close-in street-fight: I'm not training to be a professional MMA fighter - I'm training to survive the violence of a street encounter, one which will most likely occur at bad-breath distances.

    I say this not because I'm some kind of 5th degree assassin Ninja.

    Rather, it is because I was, just a short 1 and a half years ago, that naive person who thought that I could just give the bad-guy my car keys or my wallet, and that it would be done with.

    I'm no master of anything. I'm a student, and those who know me personally know that I am, myself, very, very early in terms of the progression of my journey to become a person who is more capable of defending himself and his loved ones. I'm no sterling example of fitness, but I am trying to get more fit, and I can honestly look anyone here in the eye and say that I'm better today than I was yesterday. I'm trying.

    For those who think that punching holes in paper on a static range is enough practice, that the gun at your hip is some form of magical amulet, I honestly implore you to sign up for a Force-on-Force seminar in your local area.

    This is not a "I'm better than you" post - and FWIW, I honestly don't believe that was the intention of either this thread nor its OP. I think that posts/threads like these truly do come out of the goodness of our members' hearts: that those of us who have had such experiences want to share them with those who may not have had such opportunities, so that they can understand what it is that they're missing from their viewpoint.

  4. #123
    P95
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    Running the gun under stress.

    Why do I know?

    Because I was - until only very, very recently - one of those "first timers" who'd never taken a class before.

    Because I continue to try to bring my friends - some very experienced shooters who practice often in their own homes or at the range - to such classes.

    Because I've both witnessed what other new students do (as one glaring example, one gentleman repeatedly indexed his cell-phone during emergency reloads) as well as what I have done wrong (my first time with a true double-feed malfunction, I did not use sufficient force to tear back the slide, and believe that the gun needed to be 'un-screwed' off-line, my instructor corrected me - this same error occurred to a line-mate during another class, and I returned the cosmic favor by, in-turn, showing him what he did wrong).

    Don't get me wrong.

    I do -NOT- believe that such "training classes" are the be-all and end-all.

    I very much believe in the value of self-directed work. I dry-fire practice. I do a lot of drills on my own. I'd like to think of myself as a pretty honest person, but even so, it's just not the same. Even with a timer's buzzer working against me and the feedback of airsoft or another training system such as the SIRT, there's still something missing.

    At the same time, I also firmly believe that there is a level of stress that is unique to competition shooting, and that specific type of stress can breed increased speed and efficiency of both shooting as well as manipulations.

    I firmly believe that - particularly in the civilian market - we need to take these "training classes" off the pedestals that they have been raised upon, and place more emphasis on more individualized and skills-specific training [To wit: why is it that in any other sporting endeavor, at the high end, one-on-one tutelage is the norm rather than the exception?].

    I furthermore believe most fervently that martial training needs to be integrated, that to rely solely upon firearms skills is to focus on the one glimmer of hope in the darkest and gravest of situations, and that it is not realistic, especially in the context of the armed citizen who is carrying for what is ostensibly self or home defense. In addition, I believe that such physical training should not be seen as only for the able-bodied and young, and that, instead, the elderly and physically handicapped should all the more be trained in physical techniques that can give them an edge in a close-in street-fight: I'm not training to be a professional MMA fighter - I'm training to survive the violence of a street encounter, one which will most likely occur at bad-breath distances.

    I say this not because I'm some kind of 5th degree assassin Ninja.

    Rather, it is because I was, just a short 1 and a half years ago, that naive person who thought that I could just give the bad-guy my car keys or my wallet, and that it would be done with.

    I'm no master of anything. I'm a student, and those who know me personally know that I am, myself, very, very early in terms of the progression of my journey to become a person who is more capable of defending himself and his loved ones. I'm no sterling example of fitness, but I am trying to get more fit, and I can honestly look anyone here in the eye and say that I'm better today than I was yesterday. I'm trying.

    For those who think that punching holes in paper on a static range is enough practice, that the gun at your hip is some form of magical amulet, I honestly implore you to sign up for a Force-on-Force seminar in your local area.

    This is not a "I'm better than you" post - and FWIW, I honestly don't believe that was the intention of either this thread nor its OP. I think that posts/threads like these truly do come out of the goodness of our members' hearts: that those of us who have had such experiences want to share them with those who may not have had such opportunities, so that they can understand what it is that they're missing from their viewpoint.
    Have you had the opportunity to do this...run a gun under stress???? Do you have proof you can do this better than the average joe? Or you now feel you can do this since you took a "class."

  5. #124
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ The proof is the first-timers next to me. When the stress of the class make them index their cell-phone instead of a magazine and try to - repeatedly - cram it into the magwell of their gun. When the stress of a Force-on-Force scenario covers them in bruises or paint from repeated hits from their opponents. When the stress of a timer causes them to drop shots.

    The proof is also the much more experienced individuals who are also my line-mates, class-mates, or training partners.

    When I fumble a mag-change and they don't? When their shots are on-target quicker than I can deliver mine? When I'm too winded to battle two "bad guys" in the next FoF scenario, but they're still going strong? When their training knife digs into my ribs? That's proof to me that I have more work to do.

    These aren't hypothetical stories. These are taken from my past year-and-a-half's worth of honestly trying to improve myself, in this respect: from my time spent in class, from what I witnessed with my own two eyes and my own most humbling experiences.

    Have I ever had to run my gun under critical stress? No, I have not. And by God, I pray I will *never* have to do so.

    But I put in honest work in training so that when that most unthinkable of scenarios comes to pass, even if I completely froze in place, I can still close my eyes at night and go to sleep with a clear conscience in that I at least did my best to *try* to prepare for it.

    Have I ever had to use my home or vehicle fire-extinguishers? No, I have not.

    Have I ever had the need for my home's smoke detectors or CO detectors? No, I have not.

    Have I ever had to do CPR?

    Have I ever needed the airbag on my cars?

    Have I ever needed my life insurance policy?

    The examples I gave to glockman10mm's very thought provoking questions weren't hypotheticals. Please read my post again, P95, because I wrote very clearly that I had witnessed, first-hand, such blunders of "Average Joes" - that my own errors prove that I am very much, myself, an "Average Joe."

    But a "Joe" by any other name is just another person. And as a person, we can all better ourselves. I bettered myself by realizing my errors and training to overcome them. If anything, attending such classes has made me realize that I have much more to learn.
    First Sgt likes this.

  6. #125
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    P95, thanks for your response and articulation.

    So now we have the attribute attributed to paid training as learning how to shoot, and reload under some sort of simulated stress.

    Anyone else?
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  7. #126
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ Hey, wait a minute - P95 simply quoted me, that's all.


    -----

    One more thing -->

    One consistent piece of advice that comes from virtually every trainer/instructor I've come across so far:

    That the skills they teach in the class setting - and your practice during that very small period of training - is not intended to grant you proficiency at those skills. Rather, it is intended to introduce to the concept/skill and to, in the limited time available with the instructor/in the school, at least make reasonably sure that you're doing it right.

    What you do with the skills, after the class is over, is completely up to you. You have to be committed to practicing that skill, in-earnest, in order to achieve and maintain true proficiency.

    One of my persistent regrets has been, so far, that I have not been able to attend the twice-weekly "Combative Conditioning" meets that one of my local "integrated" instructors puts on. His single-day seminar classes are chocked-to-the-brim with techniques and tactics, but the limited time spent on each skill means that it's really only an introduction - and his weekly meets is where his students get the chance to explore such skills in-depth, both through rote repetition as well as increasing tempo.

  8. #127
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    TSIWRX, sorry bout that. So, what is the measuring stick that you use to determine how this will help you in a real life or death situation. Is there any particular technique that you have learned that you feel will allow you to overcome a given situation? Is it applicable to all situations?
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  9. #128
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Glockman, for me this thread is all about those who think they can go buy a gun go to their range where they can not draw from the holster, shoot double taps or move. They can only bring the gun up and shoot for a grouping, learn trigger control at slow fire, maybe they can work on malfunctions maybe not and do reloads. They then go home do a little dry fire practice in their home learning to draw from the holster and maybe work on trigger press some but again maybe not. Take the class to get the CC and do what ever shooting if any to get that done. They then feel they are set to take on the world of crime that they should run into on the street for the rest of their lives. These are the ones I say BS on.

    You say you don't need to do training and practice but from what I have heard you post here you HAVE AT SOMETIME DONE SO therefore you know more than those who have not done what you have. So from your question of what have you learned taking this training course I now ask you what did you learn in your time of training and practice in the past? If you feel the training and practice is of no use then why did you not just pick up a gun put it in your holster and go do?

    For me what training I do and have done is because I don't know what I do know and the only way I can learn is to find those who know to show me. I am more of a hands on show and tell type guy. I then practice so I can ingrain what I just learned so it becomes habit and keep it fresh in mind, body and soul. One of the most important things I have learned through the taking of training classed is the mindset to win and that the fight isn't over until you can no longer lift your hands and arms to fight no more. Just because to take a hit or are cut does not mean you quit. Another thing I have learned is to be a fighter with a gun, knife and hands not just a shooter and carrier of those tools.
    First Sgt likes this.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  10. #129
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    I'm glad this forum has a share of those who know everything there is to know about personal defense. Maybe if you weren't so 'anti-training', you could teach us what we have had to find out from others....

    It is very arrogant to think that you cannot be taught anything useful from a class or course.
    Guest1 and MNgunner like this.

  11. #130
    P95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Glockman, for me this thread is all about those who think they can go buy a gun go to their range where they can not draw from the holster, shoot double taps or move. They can only bring the gun up and shoot for a grouping, learn trigger control at slow fire, maybe they can work on malfunctions maybe not and do reloads. They then go home do a little dry fire practice in their home learning to draw from the holster and maybe work on trigger press some but again maybe not. Take the class to get the CC and do what ever shooting if any to get that done. They then feel they are set to take on the world of crime that they should run into on the street for the rest of their lives. These are the ones I say BS on.

    You say you don't need to do training and practice but from what I have heard you post here you HAVE AT SOMETIME DONE SO therefore you know more than those who have not done what you have. So from your question of what have you learned taking this training course I now ask you what did you learn in your time of training and practice in the past? If you feel the training and practice is of no use then why did you not just pick up a gun put it in your holster and go do?

    For me what training I do and have done is because I don't know what I do know and the only way I can learn is to find those who know to show me. I am more of a hands on show and tell type guy. I then practice so I can ingrain what I just learned so it becomes habit and keep it fresh in mind, body and soul. One of the most important things I have learned through the taking of training classed is the mindset to win and that the fight isn't over until you can no longer lift your hands and arms to fight no more. Just because to take a hit or are cut does not mean you quit. Another thing I have learned is to be a fighter with a gun, knife and hands not just a shooter and carrier of those tools.
    You know Bill...its easy to say on a forum: Just because to take a hit or are cut does not mean you quit. Another thing I have learned is to be a fighter with a gun, knife and hands not just a shooter and carrier of those tools....but until you take a bullet....you have no clue how you will react. You can speculate and hope.....thats it....the rest is BS.

  12. #131
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    I'm glad this forum has a share of those who know everything there is to know about personal defense. Maybe if you weren't so 'anti-training', you could teach us what we have had to find out from others....

    It is very arrogant to think that you cannot be taught anything useful from a class or course.
    Weak. You speak as someone with a chip on your shoulder. You cannot even understand anything I said, or where I'm coming from. So sit back and learn.

    Bill, you are correct. I have done training, and still teach. However, I am not anti training at all. But rather, like in my classes, I want to encourage people to think about what they are really doing.

    I share your distaste for the person with absolutely no firearms background who thinks he has it all figured out, but has not grasped the simplest fundamentals of anything.

    However, that happens just as often with people who attend classes. They sometimes have not established objectives based on their own needs, pay alot of money, and attend a course that has absolutely nothing in common with their lives.

    It's not the instructors fault. As a matter of fact, I give Gabe alot of credit for saying " you don't know what you don't know". That's exactly the truth.
    It is the responsibility of the student to choose a curriculum that best suits his or her needs.

    Additionally, the student who haphazardly and misguidely attends a course designed for a more armed forces/ LE program, and leaves feeling that they are prepared for anything is about as well off as the greenhorn that you describe.

    So, my goal is to always think about what one wants to achieve, and help that person get there, to encourage forward thinking and not blindly follow the forum ninja crowd.
    This angers some people, because it's difficult to get your head out of your ass and think for yourself sometimes.
    It's another reason I prefer to work with female students, or people without the " concrete thinking" cave man mentality.

    To further answer your question about my training, yes, I have trained in many different areas. But the more I trained, the more I realized that if you don't have a dog inside of you willing to come out and fight, then it's over. There are something's that just cannot be trained into some people, and they will never be a fighter.

    Mike Tyson said the most intelligent thing in his life, when he said something about an up coming fight. When told how his opponent was training and preparing for their fight he stated;

    " everybody's got a plan, till they get hit in the mouth"
    And from what I've seen over the years, that's the damn truth!
    tcox4freedom and Tayopo like this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  13. #132
    P95
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    ^ Hey, wait a minute - P95 simply quoted me, that's all.


    -----

    One more thing -->

    One consistent piece of advice that comes from virtually every trainer/instructor I've come across so far:

    That the skills they teach in the class setting - and your practice during that very small period of training - is not intended to grant you proficiency at those skills. Rather, it is intended to introduce to the concept/skill and to, in the limited time available with the instructor/in the school, at least make reasonably sure that you're doing it right.

    What you do with the skills, after the class is over, is completely up to you. You have to be committed to practicing that skill, in-earnest, in order to achieve and maintain true proficiency.

    One of my persistent regrets has been, so far, that I have not been able to attend the twice-weekly "Combative Conditioning" meets that one of my local "integrated" instructors puts on. His single-day seminar classes are chocked-to-the-brim with techniques and tactics, but the limited time spent on each skill means that it's really only an introduction - and his weekly meets is where his students get the chance to explore such skills in-depth, both through rote repetition as well as increasing tempo.
    HUH...you never answered my question???

  14. #133
    P95
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    P95, thanks for your response and articulation.

    So now we have the attribute attributed to paid training as learning how to shoot, and reload under some sort of simulated stress.

    Anyone else?
    Thanks glockman10mm.....wow....nice thread huh.

  15. #134
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    P95, thanks for your response and articulation.

    So now we have the attribute attributed to paid training as learning how to shoot, and reload under some sort of simulated stress.

    Anyone else?
    A premise that I have essentially seen set forth in this thread is that if you don't shoot 3X a week, or take formal raining 5X a year, then you're just dead meat out there on the streets.

    I find that utterly preposterous.
    "People who take an Internet handle of a great warrior, are usually the first to go fetal when crunch time comes." - Me

  16. #135
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    The premise that I have essentially seen set forth in this thread is that if you don't shoot 3X a week, or take formal raining 5X a year, then you're just dead meat out there on the streets.

    I find that utterly preposterous.
    I didn't and would never say that.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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