Us and them...

This is a discussion on Us and them... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There have been some threads as of late talking about training and mindset. Some agree while others do not. I have a gun, all is ...

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  1. #1
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Us and them...

    There have been some threads as of late talking about training and mindset. Some agree while
    others do not. I have a gun, all is good. I do not agree with the later. I believe every person that
    carryies a firearm should be trained (not a state or government mandate). Some live there lives by
    the statistics and only train to that, others say that the chances are so low of me having an encounter
    that I really do not need to do much more....


    The Military, they protect our country as a whole. If we are attacked they are the ones going to the
    front line to defend our nation. They are trained to do so. We all agree that there training is necessary
    to enable them to fight to the best of there ability. Right?

    The Police, they protect our cities, our counties and society overall, they have no obligation to protect
    you on a personal level, just society as a whole. They are trained, and trained pretty good to do the job
    at hand. People have come to expect this from our police departments nation wide. They run into harms
    way and overall they do the job. Right?

    Us, the civilians. What do we protect? Well, that's easy, yourself, your family and maybe a friend or two.
    So, shouldn't we be trained? To some level, we have a duty to ourselves and our loved ones. Why would
    we want to sell them short. We as armed individuals should be trained as well as most of our police are,
    why? because when and if it does happen, it will be in your face, on the bad gus terms and we must
    react. Much like officers in the field would react. You see in this game there is no 2nd place.

    Your mindset should be set in stone, I will survive, I will not loose, I will prevail, I will continue on, Lives
    depend on YOU being able to do this. Anything short of that will get you killed, maybe your family killed. Remember,
    it is up to you, to be the best you can be. Your family depends on this. If this is hard to listen to, then do not
    take the responsibility, leave it up to others who refuse to be victims in society. We are out there, maybe
    one of us will save your butt one day....

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  3. #2
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Personally I want better training than supplied by the .gov, based on what I've seen and experienced.

    But that's just me...

  4. #3
    P95
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    I guess it all depends on where you live.
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  5. #4
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post
    I guess it all depends on where you live.
    Are Bad guys different where you live. Is someone hell bent on killing you in KY any different then one that wants to kill me in MI? Or is your neighborhood exempt from crime?
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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    There are those who have not seen enough of the evil in the world to know what they don't know. You can not know what you do know. Telling those who do not know is like telling those who can not see. For if I (they) don't know it,can not see it or feel it, it does not exist. Therefore I have no need to defend from it.

    I see those who have a gun but do not prepare in knowledge to it's use to the best of their ability being little better off than those who don't own one. Most will stand there, in their situation, in awe and wonderment. Afterwards saying there was just nothing I could do. (If they survive)

    Hopefully most will still be alive once they have knowledge to know what is really in the world. And time to prepare, if not then to each his/her own.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  7. #6
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    I have heard that civilians are better trained and shoot more frequently than most rank and file LE. I can't back that up as I have only heard this. I do agree with your post completely.
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    For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (Sun Tzu) The Art of War

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    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericb327 View Post
    I have heard that civilians are better trained and shoot more frequently than most rank and file LE. I can't back that up as I have only heard this. I do agree with your post completely.
    gunfacts.info police shoot innocent people 11% of the time. CCers do it 2% of the time. I'm not bashing police, just citing the information from gunfacts.info (which I have not vetted, but their material is cited)
    MadMac and gatorbait51 like this.
    "My problem with life is not that it is rational nor that it is irrational, but that it is almost rational." - G.K. Chesterton

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    Member Array 9mmHP's Avatar
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    i thought this would be a pink floyd song

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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Harry,
    I agree with you, to a point.

    For example, some buy a fire extinguisher, and get no training at all on the use of one. Kitchen fire extinguishers are quite small. You better know how to use one, and get to the fire early if you want any hope of success. But, if you do know the rudiments of fire fighting with an extinguisher, you can prevail over a small fire and avert a catastrophe (aim at the base of the fire and sweep side to side).

    The same can be said of small arms. Knowing the rudiments of self defense with a firearm, you can avert a catastrophe. Please note, I said CAN. Not will.

    It is incumbent on those who choose to use a defensive tool, whether a fire extinguisher or a firearm, to at the least know the rudiments of its operation.

    But, to be able to use a fire extinguisher, one need not become a fireman, and one can stop a tragedy.

    Likewise, to be able to use a firearm, one doesn't have to become a soldier or a cop.

    Over time, statistics have shown that in many cases a firearm need not be fired, only shown, to prevail. That said, one must be prepared to "go all the way" i.e. draw and fire the weapon into the threat until it is stopped.

    Most of us will never face a true sociopathic criminal. Even those who do run into a criminal and have to defend themselves will probably face a scared, desperate person, not a true professional, or a sociopath.
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams
    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

  11. #10
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Over time, statistics have shown that in many cases a firearm need not be fired, only shown, to prevail. That said, one must be prepared to "go all the way" i.e. draw and fire the weapon into the threat until it is stopped.

    Most of us will never face a true sociopathic criminal. Even those who do run into a criminal and have to defend themselves will probably face a scared, desperate person, not a true professional, or a sociopath.
    I will never play with stats, sorry. If you do not do fire drills in your home with your children you are being foolish. If you do not have a plan and train to the plan you have nothing. I understand your point, but I will not play the game of, It probably wont happen to me.
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    What's it like to step over bodies, and have your boots stick in pools of coagulated blood? There are a few who know. Many who talk of such things as the great evil that exists have never really seen it, but they perceive it to be all around, and speak as though they have.

    Myself, I see the world we live in as pretty safe. Everyday the vast majority of Americans will never even come close to real evil. And many who do will successfully defend themselves with a firearm with little or no training.
    Additionally, many of the so called victims of crime are thugs engaging in activity with other undesiable people and get the short end of the stick.

    When you have seen real death and destruction, or have visited countries such as Zimbabwe or South Africa, then you will know what it is like to not be able to sleep at night, or suffer heat exhaustion because you have to keep your windows rolled up and doors locked while driving thru a town.

    I really think that too many people get caught up in the " evil, badguys" and such on these forums sometimes and get a little out there.
    I am not directing this at the OP or any responding member here, just my thoughts on the entire " gotta train" thing.

    Get a good quality piece, learn how to use and maintain it, and enjoy your life.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  13. #12
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    What's it like to step over bodies, and have your boots stick in pools of coagulated blood? There are a few who know. Many who talk of such things as the great evil that exists have never really seen it, but they perceive it to be all around, and speak as though they have.

    Myself, I see the world we live in as pretty safe. Everyday the vast majority of Americans will never even come close to real evil. And many who do will successfully defend themselves with a firearm with little or no training.
    Additionally, many of the so called victims of crime are thugs engaging in activity with other undesiable people and get the short end of the stick.

    When you have seen real death and destruction, or have visited countries such as Zimbabwe or South Africa, then you will know what it is like to not be able to sleep at night, or suffer heat exhaustion because you have to keep your windows rolled up and doors locked while driving thru a town.

    I really think that too many people get caught up in the " evil, badguys" and such on these forums sometimes and get a little out there.
    I am not directing this at the OP or any responding member here, just my thoughts on the entire " gotta train" thing.

    Get a good quality piece, learn how to use and maintain it, and enjoy your life.
    I get your point. I have a question, how much training have you had, and do you continue to do so? I understand you are in Law enforcement. That being said, why should a civilian take his/her training any less serious?
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    Ex Member Array MNgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    When you have seen real death and destruction, or have visited countries such as Zimbabwe or South Africa, then you will know what it is like to not be able to sleep at night, or suffer heat exhaustion because you have to keep your windows rolled up and doors locked while driving thru a town.
    [clip] Get a good quality piece, learn how to use and maintain it, and enjoy your life.
    I've been to Rhodesia and SA, seen what the evil is and how the Selous Scouts dealt with it. I've no illusions as to what the evil was there or in the Middle East or is here in America.

    Why would I not take my firearms training seriously? There will be no bloody-booth cops between me and the bad guys - never has been and never will be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNgunner View Post
    I've been to Rhodesia and SA, seen what the evil is and how the Selous Scouts dealt with it. I've no illusions as to what the evil was there or in the Middle East or is here in America.

    Why would I not take my firearms training seriously? There will be no bloody-booth cops between me and the bad guys - never has been and never will be.
    I've no clue what the part in bold refers to.
    gatorbait51 likes this.
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  16. #15
    Ex Member Array RayBar's Avatar
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    I think its your responsibility to train as much as you can afford. Its pretty much common sense that if you are going to depend on a firearm to save your butt in a tight spot,you need to know how to fight with it. Besides,its just plain fun.
    Spirit51, ericb327 and BillK like this.

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