Ambiguous TN Laws??

This is a discussion on Ambiguous TN Laws?? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok so I have been reviewing some of TN laws about carrying various places, here is what caught my eye. In TN you can't carry ...

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Thread: Ambiguous TN Laws??

  1. #1
    Member Array Go Glock's Avatar
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    Ambiguous TN Laws??

    Ok so I have been reviewing some of TN laws about carrying various places, here is what caught my eye. In TN you can't carry onto private property if it is posted, however, even posting a gun sign with a slash through it is sufficient. Apparently code specific signs are not needed?

    So in TN does this mean that you would be in violation of more than just trespassing if you entered? I know that in various other states you can ignore private property signs and go in but must leave if asked to or face trespassing charges.

    I guess my real question, is TN one of those states where one can enter an anti-ccw businesses (assuming it doesn't violate other off limit laws...alcohol etc) who has posted so and not be in violation of anything until asked to leave?

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    Go Glock, as I read this, there is a requirement that the signs be of a particular type:

    "TCA 39-17-1359. Prohibition at certain meetings - Posting notice.


    (a) An individual, corporation, business entity or local, state or federal government entity or agent thereof is authorized to prohibit the possession of weapons by any person otherwise authorized by 39-17-1351 - 39-17-1360, at meetings conducted by, or on property owned, operated, or managed or under the control of such individual, corporation, business entity or government entity. Notice of such prohibition shall be posted. Posted notices shall be displayed in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the building, portion of the building or buildings where weapon possession is prohibited. If the possession of weapons is also prohibited on the premises of any such property as well as within the confines of a building located on such property, the notice shall be posted at all entrances to the premises that are primarily used by persons entering the property. The notice shall be in English but a notice may also be posted in any language used by patrons, customers or persons who frequent the place where weapon possession is prohibited. In addition to the sign, notice may also include the international circle and slash symbolizing the prohibition of the item within the circle. The sign shall be of a size that is plainly visible to the average person entering the building, premises or property and shall contain language substantially similar to the following:

    PURSUANT TO 39-17-1359, THE OWNER/OPERATOR OF THIS PROPERTY HAS BANNED WEAPONS ON THIS PROPERTY, OR WITHIN THIS BUILDING OR THIS PORTION OF THIS BUILDING. FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THIS PROHIBITION IS PUNISHABLE AS A CRIMINAL ACT UNDER STATE LAW AND MAY SUBJECT THE VIOLATOR TO A FINE OF NOT MORE THAN FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS ($500)."


    Have you seen something new? Thanks!

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    Member Array Go Glock's Avatar
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    That is exactly what I read, but I interpret it as being somewhat ambiguous to my previous issue. I guess because they don't really mention the subject the answer would be a YES, one can be charged with a criminal act and fined just by walking in the door, never mind being asked to leave and refusing thus being charged with criminal trespassing.

    Is that how you interpret it?

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    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    I am not a lawyer, but, here in West Tennessee (Memphis area) when I took my TN HCP course, I asked my instructor this very question. He said that yes the law is somewhat vague and that just about any sign, as long as it is in English, would work.
    Short version is, if the place is posted with a sign that is in English, stay out.

    I hate that law. I also realy hate the restaurant carry restriction law. Neither really make sense to me.
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    Member Array John Wesley's Avatar
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    I went to Riply's Aquarium in the Smokies. I bought tickets outside where they sell them. I entered the main building and passed through the turnstile (sp) and entered into the aquarium. I turned to talk to one of my friends only to notice a sign prohibiting carry.

    The sign was directly to the right when you walk in so unless you were really looking for it, you would never notice it. If I hadn't "accidentally" looked that way I would still not know about it.

    If discovered, would I have been in trouble? I have no idea. I really hate it that you simply can't know if you are in compliance with the law or not.

    If we must have these useless restrictions I wish we could at least know what was legal and what was not. (Sorry, rant over.)

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    Member Array Go Glock's Avatar
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    I with you John

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    I am certainly not a lawyer, but I read the TCA citation to say that the wording of the sign must be substantially similar to the wording cited. According to my reading, the language (or substantially similar wording) is required...the slash-through-the-firearm picture may be included, but is not sufficient alone--while a sign with the proper wording is sufficient to cause a charge, image or no.

    That is the way I read it, but I also know never to confuse the law with common sense.

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    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
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    I am NOT a lawyer, but from what I gather from reading, there is a specific statute, 39-17-1359, that is titled something to the effect of "Carrying a weapon on prohibited private property" that states the sign has to be worded substantially as follows:

    "PURSUANT TO 39-17-1359, THE OWNER/OPERATOR OF THIS PROPERTY HAS BANNED WEAPONS ON THIS PROPERTY, OR WITHIN THIS BUILDING OR THIS PORTION OF THIS BUILDING. FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THIS PROHIBITION IS PUNISHABLE AS A CRIMINAL ACT UNDER STATE LAW AND MAY SUBJECT THE VIOLATOR TO A FINE OF NOT MORE THAN FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS ($500)."

    If the sign is not worded substantially the same, then you cannot be charged with violation of this specific statute. (For example, if they have the universal symbol of a gun with a circle around it and the slash through it.)

    Here is the kicker, that I found in a thread on another forum, that happened in West Town Mall. If a business has the circle slash type sign or something like "No Weapons Allowed", etc, and they see you carrying, they can ask you to leave, since when on private property, you have to abide by the rules of conduct, etc, set by the owners. If you refuse to leave, or otherwise comply with their rules, you can be charged with trespassing, but not violation of the 39-17-1359 statute.

    Like I said, I am NOT a lawyer, but have read all the material I can get my hands on regarding Tennessee's carry laws, and have worked as a police officer before the changes in Tn carry permit laws.

    Hope this makes sense.

    Charlie
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    Senior Member Array palmgopher's Avatar
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    i cant wait for them to change the restaurant carry law.

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    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palmgopher View Post
    i cant wait for them to change the restaurant carry law.
    I agree... that is a bunch of antigun, politically correct, politicians' B.S.

    When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
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    Member Array 1911FXR's Avatar
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    Not living in Tennessee, I am somewhat of an interloper on this thread. I would suggest that you make your folks aware of the incident that happened at Lubys Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas in 1991. One man crashed his truck through the front of the place and jumped out with two 9mm handguns and killed 24 people & injured 20 people. There was a CHL holder who had left her gun in the car as the sign at Lubys indcated the restaurnt didn't want weapons on premises. Her parents were both killed. Most restaurants that I have been to do not inidicate any anti-gun policy anymore. It is not a state required thing here. Does TN forbid carry into a restaurant? Load up on facts and fight that law if applicable.

    Jeff

  13. #12
    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911FXR View Post
    Does TN forbid carry into a restaurant? Load up on facts and fight that law if applicable.

    Jeff
    TN forbids carry in any establishment that serves alcohol for on-premise consumption. Any restaurant that serves alcohol is a specifically prohibited to carry location.

    Charlie
    When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
    From the essay "TRIBES" by Bill Whittle

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    Member Array Go Glock's Avatar
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    Thanks to all that posted, you gave good information that helped clarify some things. Although, It still worries me that TN feels it necessary to be so vauge in their definitions of law. I am actually more worried about some lawyer that would take advantage of this/ trying to charge someone.

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