Letter to local store
This is a discussion on Letter to local store within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by catt101
I agree that they don't get "IT". But, the chances that it will happen to them are closer than the owners ...
July 7th, 2012 09:55 AM
Originally Posted by catt101
^^^^^^^^No they don't^^^^^^
Have blinders on.
Blinders would cause them to NOT see what goes on.
They have their stupid hat on, complete with tunnel vision glasses.
They see, but deny that it can happen to them,
Its the same as when you see someone pulled over on the highway for speeding, you think to yourself "better them than me" AND "I'm too good to get caught by the cops", even though you were speeding as well.
And its just like when you see an accident, most people think,"Bahhh, it can't happpen to me, I'm too careful a driver", when in reality, that is just what the people in the accident thought as well.
I would rather die with good men than hide with cowards
If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy."
M&Pc .357sig, 2340Sigpro .357sig
July 7th, 2012 10:20 AM
If an employer allows the carrying of concealed weapons
An employer who does not prohibit one or more employees from carrying a concealed weapon is immune from any liability arising from that decision. Wis. Stat. § 175.60(21)(c)."
someone is injured or killed as a result of a license holder using the weapon, is the employer legally liable?
Ace I believe most of this has to do more with employers allowing there specific employees carry at work not the general public. It is also entirely possible, depending on individual state law, the mere fact that a store or business puts up the sign "COULD" make them immune from civil liability in the event something would happen. "Your honor the individual who came in to rob us knew that it was against the store policy, we specifically told him so with the gunbuster sign, we did all we could do, so he violated the law and we are not responsible". A store or business has no duty to protect you from criminal acts, accidents yes, willful criminal acts no.
In regards to the last statement I am reading this as If a legal CCW holder comes into a place of business and begins killing people the business is not civilly liable unless there is more to the statute/ruling/opinion.
Sounds crazy but it could work.
To the OP yep good letter but without signing it will not mean anything to them.
"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013
July 7th, 2012 10:22 AM
I would like to sign this letter.
However, I know a couple of the managers and employees have acquaintances in common with me.
These acquaintances are what I call "squeaky scared sheep". They are extremely anti-gun who can't and won't be reasoned with (I made the mistake of trying). Even when one of their neighbors had a daylight burglary, they did not see that crime was a problem. And they are extremely vocal with their opinions. They will run like a 4 year old tattletale to everyone. They like to cause trouble if it makes them look good. One of these acquaintances even drove a family to change their child's Elementary school because she couldn't keep her trap shut about some extremely personal, private family issues and made life unbearable. These people gossip and move (mis)information faster than the internet!
These are the LAST people who need to know what I am up to! Concealed is concealed, but if these biddies catch wind of it, it's over. I would not put it past one lady to plaster it on billboards.
Unfortunately, these are a few middle class stay at home mommies (no offense meant, I am a stay at home mom too) who think that they are better than anyone else. They have a lot of time on their hands and spend it pretending to be what they are not. I try my very best to just stay away from them, but between school, scouts, and daily life, I sometimes have to play with the sheep to keep the peace.
Rotorblade - OC is not an option in this KC suburb currently (city mandate under review). I wish it was. Then I would not have to play "cloak and dagger" with the squeaky scared sheep! However, everyone is so panicky about guns around here, it would just lead to LEO issues. This area is the true definition of "suburbia". If you ever read any books by Erma Bombeck, you would understand. I suggest reading "The Grass is Always Greener Over the Septic Tank".
HKinNY - yes, I am sending this one by snail mail. I might just get another email. That is a good thought. Thanks!
July 7th, 2012 11:02 AM
Excellent letter, I'm saving it for my own use too. Thanks!
Though there are many reasons for posting signs. I work for a company that has posted signs specifically so they can bring charges against a problematic passenger. I feel like charges could be brought in general for brandishing or something so out signs serve no point. I've even been told by mgmt that I can carry but as I have nothing in writing and don't trust my mgmt I won't be doing so until the signs are removed. Your letter gave me some good talking points for when I speak to the boss. Thanks!
July 7th, 2012 01:18 PM
You're in my brain again!
Originally Posted by ppkheat
I think, therefore I am...
July 7th, 2012 01:47 PM
I see signs like that all the time. I don't let them impact my life at all.
"People who take an Internet handle of a great warrior, are usually the first to go fetal when crunch time comes." - Me
July 7th, 2012 02:22 PM
However - no disrespect intended - your letter is hardly worth the time spent composing it since it was sent sent anonymously. On this week when we celebrate the determination of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, who put everything they had on the line to stand up for what they believed in, hiding behind anonymity because you might be "outed" just seems lacking in real conviction. Yes, you got the praise and applause of the DC community here, but you put nothing at risk by telling us.
By sending your letter anonymously, you also eliminated any chance of a response from your addressees and the possibility of opening up a dialogue that might lead to better understanding of the CCW issue. Frankly, if I was a shop owner and I received your anonymous letter, I'd read it, but I'd also dismiss it as lacking credibility. Without knowing who you are, I wouldn't know whether you bought just a pair of shoelaces from me or if you'd been outfitting whole teams for years. The "threat" of losing an anonymous person's business is no threat at all.
Exactly what is over? Your reputation as one of the meek and clueless? Is there some shame in taking active steps to protect you and your loved ones? If you feel as strongly as you do about defending your rights, then you need to be able to articulate your position. Don't be dragged down by wagging tongues and attempted character assassination by gossips - rise above it. And I speak from personal experience, dealing with unpopular issues in small New England towns, in open meetings and in numerous published letters and op-ed pieces. Step out of the shadows and be heard.
if these biddies catch wind of it, it's over.
My point here is not to sit back and criticize, but rather to inspire you. Go read lots of our own Limatunes' blogs Limatunes' Range Diary: social dealings and see how this young lady deals with the social aspects of being an armed citizen. She provides plenty of inspiration to both genders. And meanwhile, don't give up the fight - just don't hide from it.
NRA Endowment Member
NROI Chief Range Officer
July 7th, 2012 02:30 PM
Yes and no.
Originally Posted by Chad Rogers
Trouble is, signage influences what many think, believing such posted places to be safer because the shop is "taking steps" to make it safe. Yeah, right. We know signage itself doesn't equate to security, but that's the point: most people see such signs for what they imply, not for what they really are. The fewer of such messages people get, and the more skeptical people are about the whole unarmed-victims-are-safer routine, the sooner it'll begin to payoff with general refusal to buy the pap.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
July 7th, 2012 03:13 PM
No Guns = Sheep in Denial
In CO, property owners have a right to post such signs, and as a law-abiding CC-ing citizen, I am required to comply (disarm) if I want to enter.
To me, the whole idea of posting signs like this points out a very interesting psychological trait in humans.
The property owner, for whatever reason (legal, philosophical, or ideological) believes that by posting the sign, they are making their property safer (or appear safer) for the general populace.
Silly example: Two restaurants, on the same block. One has a "no guns" sign and the other doesn't. To 90+% percent of the population, the "no guns" restaurant appears to be safer. Folks in this forum would likely disagree.
According to Grossman's Sheepdog essay, this is because the sheep are in denial. They don't want to believe that a wolf will evaluate the two restaurants and select the "no guns" place to rob, because the wolf knows that the law has shifted the risk in his favor, and is much less likely to run into any resistance there.
Folks who CC (or OC) have, I believe, gotten past this denial. The sheepdog is able to admit the presence of the wolf, and to some extent, think like the wolf. Which is why posting this type of sign seems counter-productive to most of us here.
Just my $0.02...
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Ben Franklin
July 7th, 2012 04:34 PM
Good for you OP.
In Minnesota the signs mean nothing. Only after an employee tells you to leave the premises, you leave.
A few years ago I noticed a sign at the local Toys R Us. I turned around and ordered the electric cars and other stuff for my grand kids on the Internet. I composed a nice letter to the TRU HQ with copies of receipts of the ~$2500 purchase. They responded with a nice standard letter, and I added them to the 'Gun Free Zone" companies in our local forum
Every year I send them copies of the receipts of the yearly toy purchases, and they response with a nice letter. (I do this with a few other companies.)
Maybe it's waste of time, but I feel much better in the end of the year.
As to signs in Minnesota - I merely ignore them all. (The feds usually don't post signs.)
July 7th, 2012 07:24 PM
Gsmitty - Than you for your post. I took no offense to anything you said, and even agree with some things. I understand where you are coming from. However, at this time, I do not feel able to commit my name to this letter. Maybe once I have more experience in CC and other attitudes, I will feel more free to do so. I am still in my first months as a CCer.
(although, I am seriously considering getting another email as was suggested earlier. This would allow for some anonymity while still opening a line to back and forth communications)
Yes, this shop owner may dismiss my letter as having no credibility. They still read it. we all get mail that has made us say "Phhhtt.. What a load of crap." But, we may remember that letter at a later date. Once a bell has been rung, it can not be un-rung, so to speak. It does not matter, at the time, if the idea has merit. Does not mean the shop owner will change their mind, or come to some "light-bulb" moment. However, maybe it puts that little bug in the back of their brain to be recalled at some later date.
NO, there is no shame in protecting myself and my family. However, at this time I must pick my battles. These women are not a battle I choose to take on at this time. As stated, maybe once I have a little more experience and am more confident, I will change how I handle things.
Thank you for the link to Limatunes blog. I believe that I fall into the third category:
The third group of people will discuss the subject with anyone if the subject is to surface in a conversation and may admit that they carry.
I will discuss matters with people who seem to be receptive and open minded enough to relate on a rational level. There are people who I have discussed matters with. Even perfect strangers. However, these "biddies" are not receptive, and not rational in their dealing on other matters that would seem trivial to us.
Therefore, I am not hiding from the fight. I am merely delaying the fight for a more appropriate time.
Thanks for the advice! It is discussions like these that I learn from!!! (and I have a lot to learn still!)
July 7th, 2012 09:20 PM
I like the letter and applaud you for doing it.
I LOVE that I live in a state where those retarded signs mean absolutely jack squat.
July 7th, 2012 09:42 PM
Cat101, It is wise to pick your battles. I think you are doing well.
"Marines don't surrender-they win or die." from Brute
July 8th, 2012 11:34 AM
There is an old saying, "If a man will lie about one thing; he will lie about another". If these sheep put up these signs and it makes them feel safer, and the singage carries the rule of law in your state, then they may want to think about this analogy. If a man will break one law; he will break another. If they will break the law of "armed robbery"; what makes any intelligent person think they won't break the "no guns allowed" law?????
July 8th, 2012 05:39 PM
Excellent letter. I like the part about "you do know quite a lot about me ... .... do you know that much about your other customers.?"
Please, please, send that letter! Owners of business need to learn that CCWs are not a ragged, crazy mob, but are in fact a closely regulated group of normal, sane people. I applaud your efforts!
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