If I had brought my handgun into that theater in Colorado...

This is a discussion on If I had brought my handgun into that theater in Colorado... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; ...I would've probably laid down and played dead. Now, I don't CCW, but even if I did, I imagine that this is probably how it ...

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  1. #1
    New Member Array forcifer's Avatar
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    If I had brought my handgun into that theater in Colorado...

    ...I would've probably laid down and played dead.

    Now, I don't CCW, but even if I did, I imagine that this is probably how it would've played out if I tried to stop him:

    I own a 9mm S&W M&P. Let's say I'm carrying regular 115g hollowpoints. This guy comes in one opens up with his AR, clad in full ballistic armor.

    Let's pretend for a moment that I'm an excellent shot (I don't claim to be), AND that I'm behind him so I get the chance to "get the jump" on him.I let off 3 quick, perfectly aimed shots. Two to his heart and one to his cerebullum.

    The first two rounds bury into his vest and the last bounces off his helmet.

    He wheels around, surprised to meet resistance in the mostly gunless city. I instantly become the number one bullet magnet in the room. He proceeds to fill me with lead before going back to his business.

    Doesn't seem like good odds for survival. So instead, I'll play dead. Ironic that a trained, armed individual could easily become just as defenseless and everyone else in the room, right?

    I'm starting to think the only way for a chance for successful retaliation would be to carry something like a Five-Seven with AP ammo. Is that even legal?

    So I'm here to ask this defensive carry community, what are your thoughts on this issue? How would you prepare for this type of situation?

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  3. #2
    Member Array JodyH's Avatar
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    In a situation like that I'm not going to play the odds, odds be damned.
    I'm going to close and kill him or die trying if it gives my family an extra second to escape.
    When my son was born my life became 100% expendable in the defense of him and my wife.
    I made that decision 9 years ago and situations like this one only harden my resolve.

    Some people run into the burning building.
    Some people run away from the burning building.
    Some people stand around and watch it burn.
    All are legitimate options and individual decisions.

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    This man was a coward...as soon as he was confronted with the force he gave up! this is a FACT.

    There was hundreds of people in that theatre, he was wearing a gas mask which creates a tunnel effect. At the speed of fight I don't think that he would have immediatly keyed on a defender and wiped him or her out.

    Just because he wore BA doesn't mean he was invincible or he is is just going to turn and wipe you out because your fighting back.....this is to much Lethal Weapon 4 ish.....

    This guy was too much of a coward I think anybody there fighting back may have changed the game.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

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  5. #4
    sgb
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    Quote Originally Posted by forcifer View Post
    ...I would've probably laid down and played dead.

    Now, I don't CCW, but even if I did, I imagine that this is probably how it would've played out if I tried to stop him:

    I own a 9mm S&W M&P. Let's say I'm carrying regular 115g hollowpoints. This guy comes in one opens up with his AR, clad in full ballistic armor.

    Let's pretend for a moment that I'm an excellent shot (I don't claim to be), AND that I'm behind him so I get the chance to "get the jump" on him.I let off 3 quick, perfectly aimed shots. Two to his heart and one to his cerebullum.

    The first two rounds bury into his vest and the last bounces off his helmet.

    He wheels around, surprised to meet resistance in the mostly gunless city. I instantly become the number one bullet magnet in the room. He proceeds to fill me with lead before going back to his business.

    Doesn't seem like good odds for survival. So instead, I'll play dead. Ironic that a trained, armed individual could easily become just as defenseless and everyone else in the room, right?

    I'm starting to think the only way for a chance for successful retaliation would be to carry something like a Five-Seven with AP ammo. Is that even legal?

    So I'm here to ask this defensive carry community, what are your thoughts on this issue? How would you prepare for this type of situation?
    Who's to say he wouldn't have wet himself and surrendered to you? Shooting helpless unarmed people isn't the same as taking incoming fire, body armor or not. He didn't resist the Police did he. If your mindset is you're going to fail then you're going to fail. You've already surrendered your survival to the killer.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  6. #5
    mkh
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    Distinguished Member Array mkh's Avatar
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    Strange first post but some valid point.

    Jodyh - in this case all you would have bought is a future for your son without a father. This guy was wearing body armor and trying to stop him in a dark smokey theater would have been tough to say the least. Taking a hand gun to an assault rifle fight is loosing battle.

    I can think of lots of things I could have done but I wasn't there and I'm man enough to admit I don't know for sure what I would have done. Posting in a forum and being live at the scene are two different things and until you have been there you really don't know how you would respond. Note: that "you" is meant as a generic term not just you personally.
    KoB, Hopyard, kmagnuss and 1 others like this.

  7. #6
    Ex Member Array Bazinga's Avatar
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    I agree. Whether I had my Solo 9mm, or XD40 subcompact, I don't think either would have done any good against his ballistic vest.

  8. #7
    Member Array BubbaDX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    This man was a coward...as soon as he was confronted with the force he gave up! this is a FACT.
    This! I think he would have broken off the attack and retreated to see how badly he was injured.
    sigmanluke likes this.

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Why does everyone keep bringing up the fact he had on body armor on when discussing whether it would be prudent or not to engage the guy with a handgun? From what I have read he was wearing black, the movie theater is dark, and there was smoke. Is everyone here positive they could discern he was wearing body armor at the time and use that as a decision making tool? I would have to be there and see how dark it was but it seems unlikely that folks knew what he was wearing.

    This is not questioning why someone chooses one COA over another. But it would seem to me most folks would assume he was not wearing a vest.
    Hopyard, ccw9mm, JerryMac and 5 others like this.

  10. #9
    Distinguished Member Array Ghettokracker71's Avatar
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    Unfortunately before attempts to engage the cowardly shooter, one would have no idea that he WAS in fact wearing body armor. It would only be AFTER you connected shots and there was little or no reaction that there would be any indication to you that lethal force wasn't immediately taking him down.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if rounds connect to body armor, its still rather painful? I always thought it was at least. I could be wrong, and I definitely won't volunteer to find out.

    I also have never experienced first hand any type of OC spray or tear gas, and have no interest in experiencing it. In the wake of low lighting, general chaos and and the tear gas in the air I find it hard to believe if someone was armed they would have a good chance to connect shots. Thats JMO.
    BenGoodLuck and mano3 like this.


    "To blame a gun for a mans decision is to foolishly attribute free will to an inanimate object"- Colion Noir.

  11. #10
    Member Array JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkh View Post
    Jodyh - in this case all you would have bought is a future for your son without a father. This guy was wearing body armor and trying to stop him in a dark smokey theater would have been tough to say the least. Taking a hand gun to an assault rifle fight is loosing battle.
    And laying down waiting to be executed is how you win the battle?
    My son growing up without me is better than his life being ended at 9 years old.
    I trust in my wife to move on with her life and choose a worthy father figure for my son if I were to pass.

    Close and kill him or die trying.
    If the bullets didn't work I'd cut his throat with my Spyderco or strangle him to death with my bare hands.

    Like I said.
    Some people run into the burning building.
    Some people run away from the burning building.
    Some people stand around and watch it burn.
    All are legitimate options and individual decisions.

  12. #11
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    Everybody has a plan until they get hit in the mouth, for sure. When all else fails, mine is to keep the top of the triangle on the shooter's weapon/hands as best I can and keep pulling the trigger until one of us stops shooting. That sounds at least as promising as anything else I have read in 300 or so odd posts.
    JoeK, BurgerBoy, W9HDG and 8 others like this.
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  13. #12
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forcifer View Post
    ...I would've probably laid down and played dead.

    Now, I don't CCW, but even if I did, I imagine that this is probably how it would've played out if I tried to stop him:

    I own a 9mm S&W M&P. Let's say I'm carrying regular 115g hollowpoints. This guy comes in one opens up with his AR, clad in full ballistic armor.

    Let's pretend for a moment that I'm an excellent shot (I don't claim to be), AND that I'm behind him so I get the chance to "get the jump" on him.I let off 3 quick, perfectly aimed shots. Two to his heart and one to his cerebullum.

    The first two rounds bury into his vest and the last bounces off his helmet.

    He wheels around, surprised to meet resistance in the mostly gunless city. I instantly become the number one bullet magnet in the room. He proceeds to fill me with lead before going back to his business.

    Doesn't seem like good odds for survival. So instead, I'll play dead. Ironic that a trained, armed individual could easily become just as defenseless and everyone else in the room, right?

    I'm starting to think the only way for a chance for successful retaliation would be to carry something like a Five-Seven with AP ammo. Is that even legal?

    So I'm here to ask this defensive carry community, what are your thoughts on this issue? How would you prepare for this type of situation?
    B/A doesn't turn you into a walking tank! Ask anybody in the military thats been overseas. If somebody is shooting at you even if you are fitted head to toe with B/A your still not going to stand there, or wip around, mostlikely your going to retreat to cover.
    JerryMac and BenGoodLuck like this.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  14. #13
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    People get wrapped up on this body armor thing, thinking that it makes someone invincible. It does not.

    One of the perps in the Hollywood shootout was killed when a SWAT officer shot the guy through the foot, dropping him to the ground.

    If shooting at an apparent spot doesn't work, you have to have enough presence of thought to try something else. A bullet proof vest will not stop repeated hits in the same area.

    Shoot for the legs, the feet, the arms, you gotta do what you gotta do to make the threat cease.
    if you don't have the proper mentality then stay out of the fight. Even if you do have it and you do everything correctly you may die.

    I have been an advocate of carrying full sized handguns for years, just for situations like this. The pipsqueak guns aren't going to do it. If you have the right mindset and the wrong tools, it wont do it. You are already at a disadvantage because you have brought a handgun to a rifle fight.

    I participated in a active shooter scenario at a Junior High several years ago, where the "perp" had boiler plate wrapped around him and he was armed with a 9MM AR. He had taken many simunition "hit' to his torso and people kept shooting there because that is what they were trained to do. It was a drill that was controlled and then critiqued. When my turn came up, I popped him a couple of times and then went to the knees and groin area and kept shooting until they called it.

    When I was asked why I shot where I did, I told them that shooting that boiler plate wasn't doing any good, that I had to do something. They commended me, saying that it was the right thing to do.

    All of us on my dept had done active shooter scenarios before, but they thought they would throw a kink in the plan. All we were told was to respond to a man with a gun. Communications were also critiqued, and several of the guys never mentioned that the shooter was armored up. Had they done that, more officers would have responded with the appropriate weapons rather than just showing up with handguns.

    Something else to think about.

    Thus far, in mass shootings, we have been very fortunate to have for the most part, whack jobs that didn't have much of a clue about shooting or killing.

    I have always thought that one or two guys with a clue, being gun people and having the right backgrounds could make a active shooter event and absolute night mare for first responders or any one that was unarmed.

    The shooter at Aurora, according to reports was brilliant and at the top of his class. He popped smoke, wore a gas-mask and started shooting. It's a miracle that no more people were killed than there were.He had a well thought out plan and he stuck with it, and one thing that liberals and the news media will ignore is the fact that he chose a target rich environment to do it. He had little threat, if any, of opposition.

    I've said many times that if you are qualified to carry a gun,then there is no reason not to be able to carry it anywhere and everywhere. NO GUN zones exist for one reason and one reason only...to placate anti-gun people that generally don't have a clue about reality.
    The fools that go screaming for more gun laws are just that...fools making a lot of noise about something they know nothing about. They think that passing a law that is the right way to go, because they are too ignorant to understand that a law does nothing to prevent a crime, it only serves as an enforcement mechanism after the fact.

    Lets repeal those worthless laws,and give anyone that would, at least a fighting chance. Any chance is better than no chance and at least there is hope that you just might get lucky and live.

    As for me, I am tired of stupid laws that give the advantage to an attacker. I am tired of the weak mindsets of people that give up before they even get started because they think they are doomed to failure. I am tired of the talking heads telling me that I am responsible for the acts of a lawbreaker that broke the law 3 states over because I own an "assault weapon". I am tired of people expecting us to bleat like sheep in the face of aggression. I am tired of this me,me, me mentality where someone could have stopped and assault but didn't because their weapons was only for them or their family.

    I wish that everyone that could, if in the same situation, would man up and kill the offender and do it with a passion, a purpose, that would make every single person that ever thought about it at least give pause. I wish that as Americans, we would all possess a warrior mentality were you knew you were dead went you intervened so that you could fight an attacker like you were demon possessed, that if all you had for a weapons was a straw in a cup full of coke, you would grab that straw with your thumb over the end of it and try to screw it through the offenders eye ball.

    I'm tired of this wussy thought process of laying down and hoping that you wont get hurt, and that maybe the attacker wont see you.

    Its not the way I was raised, its not the way I was trained and its not me.

    Since you asked, there is my thoughts on it.

    For those that would slam me for my opinion, thats OK, I dont expect most of you to understand it.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    People get wrapped up on this body armor thing, thinking that it makes someone invincible. It does not.

    One of the perps in the Hollywood shootout was killed when a SWAT officer shot the guy through the foot, dropping him to the ground.

    If shooting at an apparent spot doesn't work, you have to have enough presence of thought to try something else. A bullet proof vest will not stop repeated hits in the same area.

    Shoot for the legs, the feet, the arms, you gotta do what you gotta do to make the threat cease.
    if you don't have the proper mentality then stay out of the fight. Even if you do have it and you do everything correctly you may die.

    I have been an advocate of carrying full sized handguns for years, just for situations like this. The pipsqueak guns aren't going to do it. If you have the right mindset and the wrong tools, it wont do it. You are already at a disadvantage because you have brought a handgun to a rifle fight.

    I participated in a active shooter scenario at a Junior High several years ago, where the "perp" had boiler plate wrapped around him and he was armed with a 9MM AR. He had taken many simunition "hit' to his torso and people kept shooting there because that is what they were trained to do. It was a drill that was controlled and then critiqued. When my turn came up, I popped him a couple of times and then went to the knees and groin area and kept shooting until they called it.

    When I was asked why I shot where I did, I told them that shooting that boiler plate wasn't doing any good, that I had to do something. They commended me, saying that it was the right thing to do.

    All of us on my dept had done active shooter scenarios before, but they thought they would throw a kink in the plan. All we were told was to respond to a man with a gun. Communications were also critiqued, and several of the guys never mentioned that the shooter was armored up. Had they done that, more officers would have responded with the appropriate weapons rather than just showing up with handguns.

    Something else to think about.

    Thus far, in mass shootings, we have been very fortunate to have for the most part, whack jobs that didn't have much of a clue about shooting or killing.

    I have always thought that one or two guys with a clue, being gun people and having the right backgrounds could make a active shooter event and absolute night mare for first responders or any one that was unarmed.

    The shooter at Aurora, according to reports was brilliant and at the top of his class. He popped smoke, wore a gas-mask and started shooting. It's a miracle that no more people were killed than there were.He had a well thought out plan and he stuck with it, and one thing that liberals and the news media will ignore is the fact that he chose a target rich environment to do it. He had little threat, if any, of opposition.

    I've said many times that if you are qualified to carry a gun,then there is no reason not to be able to carry it anywhere and everywhere. NO GUN zones exist for one reason and one reason only...to placate anti-gun people that generally don't have a clue about reality.
    The fools that go screaming for more gun laws are just that...fools making a lot of noise about something they know nothing about. They think that passing a law that is the right way to go, because they are too ignorant to understand that a law does nothing to prevent a crime, it only serves as an enforcement mechanism after the fact.

    Lets repeal those worthless laws,and give anyone that would, at least a fighting chance. Any chance is better than no chance and at least there is hope that you just might get lucky and live.

    As for me, I am tired of stupid laws that give the advantage to an attacker. I am tired of the weak mindsets of people that give up before they even get started because they think they are doomed to failure. I am tired of the talking heads telling me that I am responsible for the acts of a lawbreaker that broke the law 3 states over because I own an "assault weapon". I am tired of people expecting us to bleat like sheep in the face of aggression. I am tired of this me,me, me mentality where someone could have stopped and assault but didn't because their weapons was only for them or their family.

    I wish that everyone that could, if in the same situation, would man up and kill the offender and do it with a passion, a purpose, that would make every single person that ever thought about it at least give pause. I wish that as Americans, we would all possess a warrior mentality were you knew you were dead went you intervened so that you could fight an attacker like you were demon possessed, that if all you had for a weapons was a straw in a cup full of coke, you would grab that straw with your thumb over the end of it and try to screw it through the offenders eye ball.

    I'm tired of this wussy thought process of laying down and hoping that you wont get hurt, and that maybe the attacker wont see you.

    Its not the way I was raised, its not the way I was trained and its not me.

    Since you asked, there is my thoughts on it.

    For those that would slam me for my opinion, thats OK, I dont expect most of you to understand it.
    I understand it, and agree 110%.
    BurgerBoy and msgt/ret like this.
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  16. #15
    Senior Member Array DaveJay's Avatar
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    Just some thoughts...

    If you are carrying and you aren't willing to use it...why are you carrying?

    A 9mm bullet travels between 1200fps and 1450fps...don't you think that it would at minimum stun him under the vest and other protection he had? And don't you think that would stop him for a moment?

    Witnesses say he stopped to reload...would you pass up an opportunity like that to save some lives?
    JoeK, BurgerBoy, JerryMac and 7 others like this.
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