hospital policy

This is a discussion on hospital policy within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; i work at a hospital and they have a "strict" no weapons policy. i work in the most dangerous place, the emergency room (level 1 ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array erdocsg's Avatar
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    hospital policy

    i work at a hospital and they have a "strict" no weapons policy. i work in the most dangerous place, the emergency room (level 1 trauma center) . I find it ironic that they do not have metal detectors for the patients.. .so i'm sure some of my patients are carrying weapons ( and probably illegal too) but i am not allowed to carry mine on campus. if i was to bring it, i would have to check it with security upon arrival, and get it at the end.... which leads it to being lost, mishandled, stolen etc..... because if a crazy patient starts shooting... there is no one there with a weapon (security is usually 85 years old and 2 days away from a broken hip)
    do i petition to carry? do i petition for metal detectors?
    do i go with " what they don't know wont hurt them" and carry anyway?

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  3. #2
    Member Array shooterready's Avatar
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    As an ER doc, they trust you with someones life....as a gun owner, you can't be trusted because it could means someones life.....go figure.
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    Ex Member Array oldrwizr's Avatar
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    Wow. When I went to the ER last year with v-tach (220 BPM) I wonder if the attending physician was afraid I'd pull a gun on him. He actually seemed pretty calm. It was my wife who was freaking.

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    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    You officially state your safety concerns to the ER Medical Director and Chief of Staff. If that doesn't get you anywhere, I would take it to the MEC and Board of the hospital. Safety and security concerns (metal detectors, competent and capable armed security in the ER, concerns with Trauma, etc.) are an important part of the hazardous vulnerability analysis for the Joint Commission Environment of Care committee. If the other avenues fail, ask Administration who the Chair of that committee is and formally address your written concerns to that committee.

    As for your own personal being armed, you can forget them ever letting that happen. If you choose to covertly do that, just make sure it is not illegal. If it is just their policy, you are only risking getting fired. Whether or not it is reportable to your licensing entity is something I'm not aware.
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    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    I'm with BugDude. There's a big difference in "illegal" & "risking your job". Personally, I'm more than willing to risk my job well before I'll risk my life. After all, if I lose the second then I have no need for the first. If you find concealed carry is "illegal", then only you can weigh the risks & make the choice. I would never suggest intentionally breaking the law, but it comes down to moral relativism. I would run a stop sign in my car to prevent being struck by a train. Easy choice. Would I risk jail time for the chance to defend my life? MUCH tougher decision. But considering the levels of extreme violence exhibited by individuals addicted to certain pain medications, combined with the fact that EVERYONE knows that there's immediate access to those drugs in a trauma ER makes me wonder why armed robbery isn't MORE common in your circumstances. May God bless you and your choice. Good Luck.
    There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    If you decide that there's a conflict of interest, then you do your best to deal with it however you see fit as an intelligent human being. Policies are designed by the weak in the hopes of being truly authoritative. Those whom think for themselves realize it's just another play for submission. Nobody has the right to decide for you....the sooner you realize this, the better off you'll be, and you may even quit relying on your medication prescribed by the all powerful system of control. It's good to think on your own....it's healthy.
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  8. #7
    Distinguished Member Array kapnketel's Avatar
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    Here is an interesting article on the subject:2011 Hospital security survey | violence, assaults, attacks, security system, firearms, ADT security

    The Joint Commission has safety and security standards, and I assume your facility is accredited so they passed their last survey on the subject. A complaint to them will not make much difference and will make you one unpopular employee. Talk to the head of security and ask to be familiarized with their procedures for dealing with volatile and combative patients.

    Can I ask what you do in the ED? Everyone here is assuming you are a physician, I did not get that from your post. How long have you been there? Your concerns are very common among ED staff, especially people who are new tot he unit. I would talk to your co-workers who have been there a while about it.

    I also am certain there is more security than you think. A lot of hospital security staff are ex LEO's. Tasers are pretty commonly carried by hospital security staff, or at a minimum they have them available. Heck, in a level 1 trauma unit there are LEO's in and out all the time.
    I'd rather be lucky than good any day

    There's nothing that will change someone's moral outlook quicker than cash in large sums.

    Majority rule only works if you're also considering individual rights. Because you can't have five wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper.

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    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    The Environment of Care committee is a HOSPITAL committee that is required by Joint Commission. They ensure compliance and monitoring of the 7 plans that they require. Safety and Security is one of those. They are required to evaluate risks annually. A letter to the hospital EOC committee will help them identify a risk, propose solutions, and evaluate effectiveness.
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    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    You officially state your safety concerns to the ER Medical Director and Chief of Staff. If that doesn't get you anywhere, I would take it to the MEC and Board of the hospital. Safety and security concerns (metal detectors, competent and capable armed security in the ER, concerns with Trauma, etc.) are an important part of the hazardous vulnerability analysis for the Joint Commission Environment of Care committee. If the other avenues fail, ask Administration who the Chair of that committee is and formally address your written concerns to that committee.

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    The Environment of Care committee is a HOSPITAL committee that is required by Joint Commission. They ensure compliance and monitoring of the 7 plans that they require. Safety and Security is one of those. They are required to evaluate risks annually. A letter to the hospital EOC committee will help them identify a risk, propose solutions, and evaluate effectiveness.
    Now..with the above being said, which BugDude is spot on, let's consider some other things...

    According to ushandgunlaw, “No Firearm” signs in Pennsylvania have no force of law unless they are posted on property that is specifically mentioned in State Law as being off limits to those with a Permit/License to Carry. If you are in a place not specifically mentioned in the law that is posted and they ask you to leave, you must leave. If you refuse to leave then you are breaking the law and can be charged. Even if the property is not posted and you are asked to leave you must leave. Always be aware of the possibility that responding Police Officers who may have been called without your knowledge and may not know the laws on trespass etc. could arrest you even if you are within the law."

    Now, does YOUR hospital have a written policy for the employees that prohibit Concealed Carry? If not, then DO NOT question the legality, or whether or not you can carry in the ER...JUST DO SO...Bringing it up will only, in all probabllity, generate a written policy which prohibits carry by employees.

    If your hospital does have a written policey, the petition for an exception as BugDude suggested...follow your chain of command..I think even if denied in the end, you will have had the self satisfaction of trying. Make it plain, that you are requesting the exception for YOURSELF and YOURSELF ONLY and NOT for other employees....JMO
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  11. #10
    Distinguished Member Array kapnketel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    The Environment of Care committee is a HOSPITAL committee that is required by Joint Commission. They ensure compliance and monitoring of the 7 plans that they require. Safety and Security is one of those. They are required to evaluate risks annually. A letter to the hospital EOC committee will help them identify a risk, propose solutions, and evaluate effectiveness.
    Well aware that it is an in house committee (although not always titled by that although with the revisions of the JC's standards more are going that route). I interpreted your initial comment as a report to TJC, my apologies for the misunderstanding. I think an informal approach is the better route, I bet the hospital administration is well aware that they are located in a bad area with potential for problems. My impression was that the OP seemed to be unaware of the in place policies and procedures to deal with these issues (frankly I am surprised at that) and suggested the informal informational gathering route rather than escalating to formal means.

    As a side note, newer ED's have special holding rooms for individuals brought in by police or suspected of violent tendencies, etc. These rooms are locked and accessed from the ambulance bay directly. The patient cannot access the rest of the ED from the room as the door is electronically locked. Very cool design. Helps keep potentially dangerous individuals from coming through a crowded ED. ED and hospital design has gone a long way in recent years.
    I'd rather be lucky than good any day

    There's nothing that will change someone's moral outlook quicker than cash in large sums.

    Majority rule only works if you're also considering individual rights. Because you can't have five wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper.

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    My recommendation is to express your concerns about armed security, metal detectors, etc. DO NOT inquire as to your ability or desire to carry. Just the other safety issues. They will NEVER condone carry and you will eliminate your ability to covertly carry legally. Trust me, after working at 5 hospitals, you don't even want to ask about you carrying.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  13. #12
    Distinguished Member Array kapnketel's Avatar
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    I agree with BigDude, inquiring will get you nowhere. Hospitals will never allow firearms. Period. My wife is CEO of several hospitals. She carries and leaves it in the car. CCW is not discussed within the organization, it is a cultural issue in healthcare.
    I'd rather be lucky than good any day

    There's nothing that will change someone's moral outlook quicker than cash in large sums.

    Majority rule only works if you're also considering individual rights. Because you can't have five wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper.

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    I've been an executive in numerous hospitals over the last 20 years and have typically been chair of the EOC and over safety and security, emergency preparedness, etc. Also Chairman of countywide EMS for over 14 years. I had to request an exception to store my firearm in my car from our Corporate Security VP. As an executive, I had to follow the policy to a T and it did indeed contain a provision for formal request for exception, but only for storing it in your car. He was cool, and that was not a problem, but we had a long discussion about it and the bottom line was there was never any circumstance in which it would ever be remotely considered inside of a facility. Unless you are an on-duty LEO or paid security service, it just won't happen.

    I now live and work in a state where state law prohibits an employer from banning you from having a legally owned firearm in your personal vehicle on company property. No need to request exception to store it in the car in Florida.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  15. #14
    Member Array Aiko's Avatar
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    Maybe I missed it, is healtcare facility carry legal in PA? It is illegal in SC without employer permission. Red flags and risk come with this territory.

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    It's always the same: pay check - gun, pay check - gun, pay check - gun . . . what to do?
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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