Haley thinks you're a liability

Haley thinks you're a liability

This is a discussion on Haley thinks you're a liability within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I saw this on another forum http://kitup.military.com/2012/07/tr...k-on-this.html While I agree with most of Travis Haley's comments in this article and respect him for who he ...

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Thread: Haley thinks you're a liability

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array RKM's Avatar
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    Haley thinks you're a liability

    I saw this on another forum

    http://kitup.military.com/2012/07/tr...k-on-this.html

    While I agree with most of Travis Haley's comments in this article and respect him for who he is, I'm sure I agree with this comment:

    The majority of concealed carry and open carry armed citizens are a liability. Just because you go through a 1 day course doesn’t not mean that you can problem solve an armored active shooter in a never expected, dark, tear gassed disruptive environment with screaming people while stepping over dead bodies. You must understand advanced applications under stress. Just like a pilot graduating flight school doesn’t mean he’s ready to jump into air to air combat.
    I don't disagree that formal training is a good thing to have. But the majority of armed citizens are a liability? I'd agree that there would be a surprising number, but not the majority. I'd probably say that the vast majority of successful armed citizens to stop a threat to them or a loved one by the use of their firearm had very little to NO training whatsoever. An active shooter in such a situation may not be the same situation as a one on one defensive scenario, but I'd be willing to bet a good majority of people who are well acquainted with their firearms and the use of their firearms would have a good chance at ending an active shooter in progress. Having the state of mind to process what's going on has little to do with firearms training itself, but is an important part of carrying a firearm. Being able to process such an event is important.

    Unless maybe I'm misunderstanding him. Because this situation that happened in Colorado would not have been an easy one to take care of. I'd like to assume he's referring to that and that alone. But as far as the simple statement of the majority on CC or OCer's being a liability, I don't agree with.


  2. #2
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    He's entitled to his opinion, but it sounds like he's a "training snob." Looking down your nose at the common man who carries a weapon for defense of self and loved ones but who has not been formally trained (and for what reason - can't afford it? conflicts with work schedule?) is too judgemental and dismissive for my tastes.
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    I don't know who Haley is or why I'm supposed to care what his opinion is, but I do agree with it. Judgmental or not, does not change the fact that most CCW carriers are woefully undertrained and a lot are legends in their own minds. With that said, I also know plenty of people with very impressive shooting school resumes that I would not want any where near me when it hits the fan.

    There is common sense, courage, and skill all at play. If there is no balance of those, you are a liability.

    Its also important to not take Haley's comment out of context. He is specifically addressing a dynamic situation as described, obviously inspired by the movie shooting in Colorado. Yes, in that type of situation, the majority of us gun toters would be a liability.

    For me, my main goal as a gun toter is to not be a liability. That might mean being a wicked awesome shot, quick draw McGraw, or it might mean recognizing that the situation is way over my head and its time to get out of Dodge. I think the latter is the most important. To be able to honestly assess ones own ability and apply accordingly.
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by From the talking putz' writings
    The majority of concealed carry and open carry armed citizens are a liability. Just because you go through a 1 day course doesn’t not mean that you can problem solve an armored active shooter in a never expected, dark, tear gassed disruptive environment with screaming people while stepping over dead bodies. You must understand advanced applications under stress. Just like a pilot graduating flight school doesn’t mean he’s ready to jump into air to air combat.
    How in the world not being able to solve all possible situations is a liability is beyond me. But apparently this talking head has it all figgered out.

    The only liability the upstanding, carrying population experienced that night was forced upon them: their state statutes banned them from having effective defensive tools on hand to help save their lives and the lives of others.
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    Who would have guessed that a guy that sells training says you need training?

  6. #6
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    I have to agree he has a point. I was watching something on Fox earlier and they naturally had the anti-gun representative giving a rebuttal and she said something that made sense. She pretty much made a similar point by saying that someone there with a gun would have only made things worse. In her view, the person with a gun would have missed (given there was a room full of gas) and harmed even more innocent people. Who's to say she's right but who's to say she's wrong?

    The thing of it is, most of us like to think if only a CCWer had been there then things could have changed and turned everything around. If we're truly going to be objective, however, we must consider the inverse. What if a CCWer had been there and he used his gun but he made matters worse because he not only missed the active shooter but injured innocent bystanders that wouldn't have been injured if he hadn't interfered? If this had happened then the media would be all over this saying how CCWers are a liability and we only make matters worse. They would say, we need to leave our guns at home and leave these types of matters to the professionals because we don't have the training/skill sets to execute such maneuvers. Sadly, this is true for some of us. I have no doubts that there are some very competent people on DC that can really handle a gun but at the same time, however, I"m also sure that there are some that aren't so competent. Don't get me wrong, I love to think that we can make a difference but I also have to consider that we also have the ability to mess things up even more.

    Fortunately, I'm not aware of any events where the CCWer messed things up even more. I hope it never happens because believe you me, if it does, the media will be all over it. It will be yet one more talking point for the antis to use as a part of their rhetoric to strip and rob us of our right to carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tubadude View Post
    Who would have guessed that a guy that sells training says you need training?
    Never ask a barber if you need a haircut.
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    Hindsight is 20/20, and speculation can never be proven right or wrong.

    In a situation like this, unarmed victims will be shot by armed attackers with monotonous regularity. If caught in a situation like that, I'd rather be holding a pistol than a box of popcorn.
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    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
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    My wife always makes us sit in the back of the theater - she gets nauseated sitting very close to the screen. At that distance, the P238 I pocket carry every day in the summer, or the Glock 26 I carry in the winter, would have been useless. I'd have had to focus on cover and trying to make my luck unless he got close. The good news is we are nearly always near an exit that we could crawl to.

    My gun wouldn't have been a liability, but it wouldn't have been much use either.

    I think Steven Hays on FOX got it best when he said, "Sometimes a sensless tragedy is just a sensless tragedy." People go on and on trying to explain it. It isn't explainable, or preventable. If he didn't have guns, he'd have had molotov cocktails, or pitched bottles of the hypergolic explosive mixture he left in his apartment, or homemade grenades made with gasoline soaked fertilizer. I think he could have done as much or more damage with 5 a couple of gallon paint buckets of gas and a match. Theater fires do not end well. People get crushed in the exit process.

    Fitch
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    I read the article and agree with the majority of it. If the one "fact" were reworded I could agree with all of it.

    The majority of concealed carry and open carry armed citizens are a liability. Just because you go through a 1 day course doesn’t not mean that you can problem solve an armored active shooter in a never expected, dark, tear gassed disruptive environment with screaming people while stepping over dead bodies. You must understand advanced applications under stress. Just like a pilot graduating flight school doesn’t mean he’s ready to jump into air to air combat.
    Now if it read:

    Many concealed carry and open carry armed citizens are not sufficiently prepared for a determined and prepared shooter.
    That I could agree with.
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    While I don't think CC makes you an automatic liability, I think its important to have the smarts not to become one. To echo what SIXTO said you got to realistically asses your skills, the situation and your equipment and make sound judgements. Even if that judgement is to say "nope I can't do it, id do more harm then good"

  12. #12
    Distinguished Member Array RKM's Avatar
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    Like I said, I agree training is an obvious advantage but Travis Haley's comment can easily be taken out of context and read that simply a conceal carrier alone, in any event, is a liability where training or not just isn't the case. I've already mentioned in another thread that had I been out in Colorado that night, I would have done my best to get out I there. I carry to protect myself and loved ones, not to be a hero. I'd only consider taking a shot had I been given a clear and perfect opportunity.

    I've never had any form of formal training, and I'm not claiming to be able to take care of anything thrown at me, but his comments can easily be misunderstood. There is a common consensus of people who do believe they are given a gun they can take on the world, but I don't see that as "the majority".

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    Just like a pilot graduating flight school doesn’t mean he’s ready to jump into air to air combat.
    If that's the only pilot that can fly the fighter plane in that whole base, he is your best chance before before a massacare.

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    Senior Member Array taseal's Avatar
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    sometimes I wish these people would face a situation like we had few days ago, only to be saved by a citizen with a weapon.

    curious if they would change their minds?

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    Senior Member Array taseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitch View Post
    My wife always makes us sit in the back of the theater - she gets nauseated sitting very close to the screen. At that distance, the P238 I pocket carry every day in the summer, or the Glock 26 I carry in the winter, would have been useless. I'd have had to focus on cover and trying to make my luck unless he got close. The good news is we are nearly always near an exit that we could crawl to.
    Fitch
    Good point. there are people (I think) that would try to be a hero and make that shot though.

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