No Gun Signs For Insurance Purposes

No Gun Signs For Insurance Purposes

This is a discussion on No Gun Signs For Insurance Purposes within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have seen mentioned on different forums that businesses post because of Insurance purposes. The Colorado Theater was posted in Aurora. I have talked to ...

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Thread: No Gun Signs For Insurance Purposes

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Gary Slider's Avatar
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    No Gun Signs For Insurance Purposes

    I have seen mentioned on different forums that businesses post because of Insurance purposes. The Colorado Theater was posted in Aurora.

    I have talked to an Insurance Agent who issues business policies in the states of West Virginia and Ohio. This agent told me that they had never seen mentioned in a policy or a rider to a policy that stated posting your property would lower or not posting would raise your premiums. They also stated that at any conference they had attended that they remembered weapons on property ever being mentioned.

    The Agent told me the only thing concerning weapons on a business property that has an effect on their premiums is if the business keeps weapons on the property. Bartender carries a firearm or armed security. Was told this would cost them about $100 extra a year. The agent also stated that a business had a huge sword hanging on the wall as an ornament but that was a weapon and they had to pay the extra $100 to keep it on site.

    I should have also mentioned that the Agent stated that posting or not posting did not change their coverage in any way.

    Again nothing about raising or lowering premiums depending on the property being posted or not. If anyone in the insurance business who sells policies to business or knows an agent to ask and knows of any company that does charge if they don't post please let me know. I am getting tired of people stating all the time that they have to post for insurance purposes when I can find no evidence that they would pay more if they didn't post their store or business.
    Stay Safe,
    Gary Slider

    Co-Owner Handgunlaw.us

    Member Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    It's not about insurance, per se, it's about liability or perceived liability in general when an event takes place. You can see how that can take place in this story

    Mother files lawsuit in fatal Kroger shooting - 13 WTHR Indianapolis

    Even though Kroger had a policy against their employees carrying firearms, apparently that's not enough. I suppose they should have stopped and frisked each employee. Never mind that the person shot was a convicted felon in the process of committing another felony.

    This is the kind of crap that companies in the United States are faced with every day.
    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  3. #3
    Member Array CPanther95's Avatar
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    Many states offer immunity for incidents involving 3rd parties legally carrying on a business' premises. I'm not sure if I've seen any state law that offers that same immunity to businesses that ban guns and someone involved in an incident was not allowed to protect themselves.

    If that's the case, if there was a difference in liability insurance premiums, it's the businesses banning guns that would pay the higher premium. You probably won't see a difference in premiums until a couple successful lawsuits by disarmed victims.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array Gary Slider's Avatar
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    You can always be sued. But that was an employee carrying a firearm against company policy which the only thing they can do is fire him. People are stating that if they don't post their insurance will cost more or they are not covered. Having the sign or not having the sign does not effect their costs or their coverage. It also does not stop any liability except in states that have specific laws stating that if someone comes in and hurts people they can't sue the business. Wisconsin has such a law.
    Stay Safe,
    Gary Slider

    Co-Owner Handgunlaw.us

    Member Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network

  5. #5
    Member Array CPanther95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene83 View Post
    It's not about insurance, per se, it's about liability or perceived liability in general when an event takes place. You can see how that can take place in this story

    Mother files lawsuit in fatal Kroger shooting - 13 WTHR Indianapolis



    Even though Kroger had a policy against their employees carrying firearms, apparently that's not enough. I suppose they should have stopped and frisked each employee. Never mind that the person shot was a convicted felon in the process of committing another felony.

    This is the kind of crap that companies in the United States are faced with every day.
    Not that it isn't costly to defend against bogus claims, but she should not successfully collect in that case. The shooting was justified, and she has no right to damages for a Kroger employee violating company policy.

    Then again, I guess I wouldn't be shocked at them making a case that her son specifically targeted Kroger for the robbery because he knew that their policy was that their employees were not to be armed. "If he thought his victims could return fire, he would have picked a different store to rob."

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    Senior Member Array Gary Slider's Avatar
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    But I am after companies that keep saying they do it for insurance purposes. I can find nothing that says it effects their policy in any way. I am asking if anyone out there knows more about insurance or maybe a business person who was told by an insurance agent they had to post their property to cut costs and liability. I only talked to an agent who sold insurance for business in OH and WV.
    Stay Safe,
    Gary Slider

    Co-Owner Handgunlaw.us

    Member Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network

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    Senior Member Array PM's Avatar
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    The problem is how often has a person sued for a business; like the moive theater, Calinbine or other site of a mass shooting, for not allowing guns after said event? I do not think any one has done so ever. If there was liability or perceived liability for not allowing guns then, maybe there would be less places posting.

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    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Having worked as the Financial Executive for many companies that were posted, I can assure you it has nothing to do with insurance or premiums. It is an easy excuse for businesses to toss out there without having to debate or prove it and a vast majority of people will readily buy it without question because it sounds reasonable.
    sdprof, archer51 and accessbob like this.
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  9. #9
    Member Array JungleJim's Avatar
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    Thankfully, here in Florida those signs are as meaningless to law abiding citizens as they are to criminals.
    BugDude and accessbob like this.

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    Member Array RonM0710's Avatar
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    I hope someone that had a CCW permit and was not allowed to carry into the Aurora theater sues the theater for any physical or psychological trauma they went through while unable to defend themselves or their love ones.
    "Lets Be Careful Out There!"

    Ron

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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    I do know that insurance companies will recommend a business take certain measures that might help show in a civil suit that there were efforts to prevent possible accidents or other liabilities. Matter of fact we all know that some insurance companies offer discounts to customers who take steps to lessen possible liability to the carrier.
    My local banker does not use the insurance excuse. When I asked him why he had put up gun buster signs he told me that the banking organization was told by the District Attorney that it would be difficult to prosecute a armed robber if there were no signs preventing the carrying of firearms in the bank. When I asked how they would prosecute the robbery charge because he had no signs up preventing robbers from coming in.

    Michael

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    Senior Member Array highvoltage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    ....the banking organization was told by the District Attorney that it would be difficult to prosecute a armed robber if there were no signs preventing the carrying of firearms in the bank......l
    That has to be the dumbest statement a DA has ever made. Either that or the bank is deliberately misquoting the DA for their own benefit.

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    Ex Member Array oldrwizr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonM0710 View Post
    I hope someone that had a CCW permit and was not allowed to carry into the Aurora theater sues the theater for any physical or psychological trauma they went through while unable to defend themselves or their love ones.
    Yeah, we could sure use more frivolous lawsuits.

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Gary, Is your friend a direct writer or an independent agent?
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

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    VIP Member Array Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slider View Post
    But I am after companies that keep saying they do it for insurance purposes. I can find nothing that says it effects their policy in any way. I am asking if anyone out there knows more about insurance or maybe a business person who was told by an insurance agent they had to post their property to cut costs and liability. I only talked to an agent who sold insurance for business in OH and WV.
    I would venture to guess that the majority of people don't understand the difference between insurance and liability. My insurance agent told me to do ABC or my lawyer told me to do xyz probably equates to the same thing to a lot of people. It's probably easier to simply say to someone asking "It's for insurance reasons."
    barstoolguru likes this.
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