How a CCW Could Stop A Mass Murder:

How a CCW Could Stop A Mass Murder:

This is a discussion on How a CCW Could Stop A Mass Murder: within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Realistically, in terms of Colarado "What Ifs" have no answer, it's over and we can't re-do it with something new in hope that changes the ...

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Thread: How a CCW Could Stop A Mass Murder:

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    How a CCW Could Stop A Mass Murder:

    Realistically, in terms of Colarado "What Ifs" have no answer, it's over and we can't re-do it with something new in hope that changes the outcome - unfortunately. But I think looking at any situation like this there might be a constant to help if a CCW was present in future such situations.

    You'd likely have to ignore the usual ways to stop somebody: unless you happened be very close and could sneak closer for a point-blank shot.
    Otherwise, while trying to keep out of the line of fire, aimed shooting might work, but only if you could do it very fast before you were spotted AND do it with a clear line of fire - both are really chancy and with the chaos of running people, having an obstructed line of fire for enough time to aim well unlikely - very dicey and if the guy is all done up in ballistic armor and clothing, only the face unprotected, well, that would have to have Annie Oakley aiming and shooting.

    But the FBI agent in an article I posted mentioned something that would work he thought for unarmed people, just charging at the shooter, knowing some would die - it would take several heroes working together - again not so easy to form a plan in the midst of chaos. But I took that idea and one man armed as a CCW and put them together: you'd have to accept you could easily die, but at a moment the shooter is looking elsewhere, the charge of the many unarmed suggested by the FBI Instructor could just be one if he was armed. You run right at the shooter as he looks to the side and start firing while running in. YOU now have the surprise, these killers are methodical as they plan but they wouldn't have planned on this. It will take a moment for the shooter to realize what's happening before he can swing his weapon to you and by then you could be very near him and hit repeatedly the vulnerable areas on his body, even if were just his face. The goal would not be to wait until he goes down - because he might shoot more while dropping. The goal would be to grab his weapon and scream HELP! so others go up to aid taking the gun away - and all this starts when he is disoriented from being shot.

    Preparing for this - while it's highly unlikely to happen to you - is at least possible - and much of the training would involve mental training, to accept death by trying this kind of charge. The other way to prepare, if you found someplace they would let you do it, would be to practice accurate point-shooting while running to the target. You'd have to build up to it - starting with just running to work on not falling, being balanced etc. Then try it with unloaded gun awhile, and only after that: loaded. Something like that.

    Anyway, I thought this kind of attack - not a defense - could be a possible way a CCW could stop a Mass Killing
    Last edited by walleye; July 28th, 2012 at 10:39 AM.


  2. #2
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911247 View Post
    This is why i carry a Ka-bar as part of my EDC. Bullets have a hard time finding weakness on body armor.....tanto combat knives dont. They will pierce a car door and a lot of levels of Kevlar...........they seem to find nooks and crannies that bullets miss. If the choice looks like me dead vs 20 people..i would give my best shot at making sure the only dead guys are me and the shooter. Hopefully just the shooter.
    Sounds very effective -and I like the way you put the choice, you both die or he dies and you don't. But even if it's the first, the killing is stopped. That why I think preparation is accepting death that may include you, and while an unhappy event, we would give our life to save many lives/ I think if you didn't prepare mentally in this way, at crunch time you'd back off.

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    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911247 View Post
    The way i look at it. Death is inevitable. We are ALL going to die some day, we cant stop it. The question is when.....and how. Yes i like being alive, yes i love my family, my girlfriend and my friends. However i am one man. I am not married and i have no children....my views may change as my life does but now...i would rather give my life for the good of many, than end up 90 years old and suffering daily ,on thousands of meds and die miserable . I would rather die young, and know that i did something meaningful with my last moments, then die old and know that i could have done something. but didnt. maybe thats the Patriot Jarhead in me creeping out. But thats how i feel.
    Sounds like you dealt with the mental training. I think it gives relaxation and freedom to all parts of our lives once we see what we'd risk, and still be willing to do it.
    I'm in your position but older, but my life is beginning to feel completed, and I have the first hints of disease and body-breakdown, and also have seen a LOT of close friends go the last few years, and I'd rather go out saving others than meet the fate of the old, and sick, the burden on others - isn't one of the famous Christian sayings something like this: "The greatest love man has is to lay his life down for that of his fellow man?

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    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911247 View Post
    Exactly my thoughts. I dont want my family to remember me as the guy who died because someone else went nuts, however i would rather be remembered as the man who gave his life for a purpose. i would rather do something good with the time i have here , than live with the guilt of knowing im alive, but many people are not because i did not give what i have to help them. I've put myself between a criminal and the helpless many times before, I placed myself between AlQaeda and my country. I've put myself between my armed abusive drunk stepfather and my mother. I've also placed myself between gang bangers and complete strangers. Its in my nature to be the first one to make a stand against evil when i am able to.......and honestly if i went out that same exact way. I dont believe it would shock or surprise anyone who knows me.
    Seems you've lived your life for the main principle of helping others even though you must put yourself into very dangerous positions that could result in your death to do that.
    And it would be fitting if you went out for good having saved many from the horror of places like that Movie Theater.


    But don't go far looking to go like that - we die when Fate or God wants us to - and maybe when he wants is at 98 at a bad Nursing home - where less dramatically you could give your remaining energy to helping those around you.
    Last edited by walleye; July 28th, 2012 at 10:43 AM.

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    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911247 View Post
    Oh looking for it is not in my agenda , never will be either. But as i said, i've always been the first to get up when it hits the fan. If im there......and i can do something. I will do something. just how im wired.

    Then again if it were a perfect world i would not have to react to things the way i do. I have a superman complex, ill admit it. Always wanted to be a cop, joined the Marines instead. Always helped everyone, even if it harmed me. If i had it my way.....i wouldnt have to do anything. But the world is not a perfect place.
    I know what you mean. I'm always waiting to become Prince of North America so I can order everyone do to what I want, but half the year gone and again, and I hear nary a word from the Court..

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    In most active shooter situations, people run away from the shooter, so organizing some kind of charge would be pretty much useless, IMO (too much noise to effectively communicate, not enough time to organize).

    People were hiding, running, ducking, etc., so I think that if the CCW holder stood up to get a clear shot, he or she may have gotten one (but made himself or herself a target). Also, these types of people are generally cowards who run away when confronted, so even if he had body armor, a couple of COM hits (getting shot while wearing a vest still hurts), or even some misses might have changed the outcome.

    I don't know what I would have done in that situation. I may have curled up into a ball and cried, or I may have responded with sudden and appropriate force directed at the BG, but I think that a few shots from someone in the crowd may have changed the outcome.
    Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men -St. Augustine

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911247 View Post
    Exactly my thoughts. I dont want my family to remember me as the guy who died because someone else went nuts, however i would rather be remembered as the man who gave his life for a purpose. i would rather do something good with the time i have here , than live with the guilt of knowing im alive, but many people are not because i did not give what i have to help them. I've put myself between a criminal and the helpless many times before, I placed myself between AlQaeda and my country. I've put myself between my armed abusive drunk stepfather and my mother. I've also placed myself between gang bangers and complete strangers. Its in my nature to be the first one to make a stand against evil when i am able to.......and honestly if i went out that same exact way. I dont believe it would shock or surprise anyone who knows me.
    Wow! You are a hero, man. Thank you for serving!


    “Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.” Thomas Paine


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    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walleye View Post
    Realistically, in terms of Colarado "What Ifs" have no answer, it's over and we can't re-do it with something new in hope that changes the outcome - unfortunately. But I think looking at any situation like this there might be a constant to help if a CCW was present in future such situations.

    You'd likely have to ignore the usual ways to stop somebody: unless you happened be very close and could sneak closer for a point-blank shot.
    Otherwise, while trying to keep out of the line of fire, aimed shooting might work, but only if you could do it very fast before you were spotted AND do it with a clear line of fire - both are really chancy and with the chaos of running people, having an obstructed line of fire for enough time to aim well unlikely - very dicey and if the guy is all done up in ballistic armor and clothing, only the face unprotected, well, that would have to have Annie Oakley aiming and shooting.

    But the FBI agent in an article I posted mentioned something that would work he thought for unarmed people, just charging at the shooter, knowing some would die - it would take several heroes working together - again not so easy to form a plan in the midst of chaos. But I took that idea and one man armed as a CCW and put them together: you'd have to accept you could easily die, but at a moment the shooter is looking elsewhere, the charge of the many unarmed suggested by the FBI Instructor could just be one if he was armed. You run right at the shooter as he looks to the side and start firing while running in. YOU now have the surprise, these killers are methodical as they plan but they wouldn't have planned on this. It will take a moment for the shooter to realize what's happening before he can swing his weapon to you and by then you could be very near him and hit repeatedly the vulnerable areas on his body, even if were just his face. The goal would not be to wait until he goes down - because he might shoot more while dropping. The goal would be to grab his weapon and scream HELP! so others go up to aid taking the gun away - and all this starts when he is disoriented from being shot.

    Preparing for this - while it's highly unlikely to happen to you - is at least possible - and much of the training would involve mental training, to accept death by trying this kind of charge. The other way to prepare, if you found someplace they would let you do it, would be to practice accurate point-shooting while running to the target. You'd have to build up to it - starting with just running to work on not falling, being balanced etc. Then try it with unloaded gun awhile, and only after that: loaded. Something like that.

    Anyway, I thought this kind of attack - not a defense - could be a possible way a CCW could stop a Mass Killing
    He wasn't wearing ballistic armor. It was just a tactical vest. Those don't stop bullets. A few well placed COM shots would have stopped him quick.

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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey2011 View Post
    He wasn't wearing ballistic armor. It was just a tactical vest. Those don't stop bullets. A few well placed COM shots would have stopped him quick.
    I thought that was still up for clarification.

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    I've read that the police said that he was wearing a ballistic vest, there's confusion because the only thing that the media has a receipt for was the tactical vest

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolverine181 View Post
    I've read that the police said that he was wearing a ballistic vest, there's confusion because the only thing that the media has a receipt for was the tactical vest
    I've got an old range bag made of "ballistic" nylon that's got plenty of bullet holes in it. (we used it to prop up a target stand)
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    One of the college shootings ( can't remember which one) that was exactly what was done. One gun and a whole lot of bodies swarmed the shooter. It is impossible to cover 360 and it may be the best for the closest few to the sides and behind just do a flight 93 pounce attack


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    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolverine181 View Post
    I've read that the police said that he was wearing a ballistic vest, there's confusion because the only thing that the media has a receipt for was the tactical vest
    In the beginning the word was he had ballistic covering all over including his neck and had a helmet - but they may have changed.

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    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walleye View Post
    In the beginning the word was he had ballistic covering all over including his neck and had a helmet - but they may have changed.
    Last I heard, it was being reported as a tactical vest. The media saw the pictures of a vest next to his car at the scene and just decided to draw their own conclusions. As far as what the police said, the chief couldn't even tell the difference between a full auto rifle and a semi auto rifle, so I wouldn't put much stock in what they say.

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    It's an interesting theory, but, to be honest, I'm not there yet.

    I understand what you are saying and think it could be effective and I agree that it could and probably WOULD work, but I've got something to live for. I would stop short at the thought of my kids growing up without me and everything I would miss by not being in their lives.

    Granted, depending on the situation, if it's looking like I'm gonna get it anyway, might as well go out fighting. But if there is a chance of escape first, that's my option.

    And if my husband decided to be the hero and do the charge I think I'd be very proud of him but I would also have a lot of internal struggle with feelings of anger that he left us and opted out of his life with us for one heroic moment. Save the medals and the speeches, just give me my husband.

    Maybe when my kids are grown I'll feel differently, but not now.
    PEF and cj like this.

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