After the shot ..

After the shot ..

This is a discussion on After the shot .. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; After reading some of the Docs concerns about pulling the trigger I was thinking that a certification in first aid might be a good thing. ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array velo99's Avatar
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    After the shot ..

    After reading some of the Docs concerns about pulling the trigger I was thinking that a certification in first aid might be a good thing. Once the threat is eliminated, the BG is just a human being in need of first aid for a gunshot. Do we apply first aid or just watch him bleed out ?
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    Ex Member Array ComplexKaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velo99 View Post
    After reading some of the Docs concerns about pulling the trigger I was thinking that a certification in first aid might be a good thing. Once the threat is eliminated, the BG is just a human being in need of first aid for a gunshot. Do we apply first aid or just watch him bleed out ?
    Good question.

    Applying first aid looks good but it can also be interpreted by a prosecutor that you were wrong for shooting and by applying first you are showing guilt in some way. It is very possible with the kind of DA's we have running around in this country. I have never heard of anyone rendering aid to a BG in a SD shooting.

    I know some officers have rendered aid to people they have shot, while others simply called for fire to respond which I would do.

    So for a civilian its tricky.

    You have to ask yourself do you have time to render aid after shooting a BG? Especially if the shooting occurred in public, there are a lot factors involved in a public shooting as opposed to one inside of your home or any dwelling. I do not believe one should render any first aid to a person who physically harmed you, a loved one or innocent or attempted to. They knew what they were doing before you fired the shots that ended their attack.

    Best thing to do is to try and find cases where the rendering of first aid was turned into an issue by a prosecutor and go from there. Yet I haven't heard of a citizen rendering aid in a SD shooting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by velo99 View Post
    After reading some of the Docs concerns about pulling the trigger I was thinking that a certification in first aid might be a good thing. Once the threat is eliminated, the BG is just a human being in need of first aid for a gunshot. Do we apply first aid or just watch him bleed out ?
    If he bleeds out that is the choice he made when he took up his life of crime. I will not get within arms reach of him, there is no way to know if he's really down for the count, or faking to get you within hands on distance. I will keep my distance from him, call 911 and wait for the police and EMS to arrive.
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    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
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    I would absolutely do first aid to keep him/her from dying if I was sure he/she was no longer a threat.
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velo99 View Post
    ... I was thinking that a certification in first aid might be a good thing.
    Always a good skill set to have.

    Once the threat is eliminated, the BG is just a human being in need of first aid for a gunshot.
    No, a deadly assailant is a person who hasn't yet finished his task. Getting to within contact distances can be extremely risky, particularly if you're going to be otherwise preoccupied and alone. Think it through.

    Yes, he's human. Yes, he's a deadly threat. And yes, if I could be assured he wasn't capable of continuing such threats then I'd consider assisting ... but that would take being hogtied or strapped to a table, none of which I'd likely be able to effect in the field.

    My take: Calling in the cavalry is providing help. Letting the pro's attend to the person who was (and likely still is) intent upon killing you and yours isn't a sin. It's just good common sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComplexKaos View Post
    Good question.

    Applying first aid looks good but it can also be interpreted by a prosecutor that you were wrong for shooting and by applying first you are showing guilt in some way. It is very possible with the kind of DA's we have running around in this country. I have never heard of anyone rendering aid to a BG in a SD shooting.

    I know some officers have rendered aid to people they have shot, while others simply called for fire to respond which I would do.

    So for a civilian its tricky.

    You have to ask yourself do you have time to render aid after shooting a BG? Especially if the shooting occurred in public, there are a lot factors involved in a public shooting as opposed to one inside of your home or any dwelling. I do not believe one should render any first aid to a person who physically harmed you, a loved one or innocent or attempted to. They knew what they were doing before you fired the shots that ended their attack.

    Best thing to do is to try and find cases where the rendering of first aid was turned into an issue by a prosecutor and go from there. Yet I haven't heard of a citizen rendering aid in a SD shooting.
    Nothing tricky to it. You have no legal requirement to render aid, nor do you have a moral requirement to render aid to a person who just tried to kill you.

    Another thing to keep in mind. If he dies and his family decide to sue for wrongful death. Their lawyer will attempt to paint you to the jury as someone who not only shot their little "choir boy", but who then went and made sure he died, instead of letting EMS save his life.
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    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComplexKaos View Post
    Good question.

    Applying first aid looks good but it can also be interpreted by a prosecutor that you were wrong for shooting and by applying first you are showing guilt in some way. It is very possible with the kind of DA's we have running around in this country. I have never heard of anyone rendering aid to a BG in a SD shooting.

    I know some officers have rendered aid to people they have shot, while others simply called for fire to respond which I would do.

    So for a civilian its tricky.

    You have to ask yourself do you have time to render aid after shooting a BG? Especially if the shooting occurred in public, there are a lot factors involved in a public shooting as opposed to one inside of your home or any dwelling. I do not believe one should render any first aid to a person who physically harmed you, a loved one or innocent or attempted to. They knew what they were doing before you fired the shots that ended their attack.

    Best thing to do is to try and find cases where the rendering of first aid was turned into an issue by a prosecutor and go from there. Yet I haven't heard of a citizen rendering aid in a SD shooting.
    Maybe there is some anecdotal to show that that is true, but I can't imagine it looking bad. If I am on a jury, for instance, and the guy says "I shot him to stop the threat. Once the threat was gone I tried to save his life." there is probably no way I vote to convict.
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    Ex Member Array ComplexKaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    If he bleeds out that is the choice he made when he took up his life of crime. I will not get within arms reach of him, there is no way to know if he's really down for the count, or faking to get you within hands on distance. I will keep my distance from him, call 911 and wait for the police and EMS to arrive.
    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Nothing tricky to it. You have no legal requirement to render aid, nor do you have a moral requirement to render aid to a person who just tried to kill you.

    Another thing to keep in mind. If he dies and his family decide to sue for wrongful death. Their lawyer will attempt to paint you to the jury as someone who not only shot their little "choir boy", but who then went and made sure he died, instead of letting EMS save his life.
    I wouldn't render aid at all, because as you said there is no legal requirement for one to do so.

    But I wouldn't rule out any kind of possible argument or tactics by the BG family attorney to make one of us look bad, if I was the BG family attorney you can be sure ill try to get you on something.

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    Ex Member Array ComplexKaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad426 View Post
    I would absolutely do first aid to keep him/her from dying if I was sure he/she was no longer a threat.
    You said "absolutely".

    Why do you feel so strongly about possibly saving the life of someone who attempted to seriously hurt you or take your life?

    No challenge, I just want to know.

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    A very good question that possibly has no good answer.

    Why would a person want to render aid to someone who was attempting injury or death to someone? Would the criminal person help their victim? Absolutely not, so why would the victim even care what happend to the perpetrator? Makes no sense.

    Yet, most humans do have a degree of conscious and feel sorrow or maybe even guilt in having to use extreme force (ie with a weapon) to render the assailant immobile and remove the threat of danger. Those people who still have some faith in humanity would attempt to aid the perpetrator because even though they might deserve what happend, they are still "human" and people would help.

    I think we should mabye see some statistics of how many rendered aid to a criminal who was going to to possibly injure or kill their victim.
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    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    I wouldn't render aid because I wouldn't want to get within contact distance of them, least they become a threat again. There is also the infectious disease issue and if you attempt to render aid you will likely come in contact with their blood (or saliva). I don't find it hard to envision that someone who has chosen to engage in deadly violence has made other lifestyle choices that would make contact with their bodily fluids a serious risk. The the EMS who have been better trained and have the proper equipment deal with it.

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    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComplexKaos View Post
    You said "absolutely".

    Why do you feel so strongly about possibly saving the life of someone who attempted to seriously hurt you or take your life?

    No challenge, I just want to know.
    I feel very strongly that I never want to have to kill someone. If I have to shoot to stop a threat to my family or me I will. If the person dies as a result I will live with it knowing it was his decision, but I would be shooting to stop the threat, not to kill necessarily. If the threat was gone, as the OP said, it is now just a human being in need of first aid.
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    Senior Member Array Dennis1209's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    If he bleeds out that is the choice he made when he took up his life of crime. I will not get within arms reach of him, there is no way to know if he's really down for the count, or faking to get you within hands on distance. I will keep my distance from him, call 911 and wait for the police and EMS to arrive.
    There are people with ESP reading my mind I see. Time to put my foil hat back on.
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    I think one thing that is being overlooked is that once you shoot someone, the area is a crime scene.

    There is evidence that will either confirm or contradict your story of what happened. If you render aid, you are quite probably changing the dynamics of the crime scene. Your DNA will now be on the BG ("no officer, I know the BG says I hit him first, but I swear, I never touched him/her"... how's that going to work now??).

    You may accidentally kick away brass that will show that he/she shot at you first.

    His/her weapon may be taken by someone else while you are distracted in tending their wounds (good luck convincing the police there really was one if they didn't use it).

    You will be distracted in aiding him/her, and more susceptible attack from an accomplice.


    Calling 911, IMO, is the best way of rendering aid while still protecting yourself.
    Last edited by Badey; July 28th, 2012 at 11:32 AM. Reason: add content
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    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badey View Post
    I think one thing that is being overlooked is that once you shoot someone, the area is a crime scene.

    There is evidence that will either confirm or contradict your story of what happened. If you render aid, you are quite probably changing the dynamics of the crime scene. Your DNA will now be on the BG ("no officer, I know the BG says I hit him first, but I swear, I never touched him/her"... how's that going to work now??).

    You may accidentally kick away brass that will show that he/she shot at you first.

    His/her weapon may be taken by someone else while you are distracted in tending their wounds (good luck convincing the police there really was one if they didn't use it).

    You will be distracted in aiding him/her, and more susceptible attack from an accomplice.


    Calling 911, IMO, is the best way of rendering aid while still protecting yourself.
    The crime scene isn't complete until all the action is over. If the final scene involves the bad guy's blood on you because you performed first aid then that's part of the forensic story.
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