"I'LL SHOOT YA !" : What Would You Do With This One ? :

"I'LL SHOOT YA !" : What Would You Do With This One ? :

This is a discussion on "I'LL SHOOT YA !" : What Would You Do With This One ? : within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Bout 30' from where I was sitting in a restaurant-coffee shop watching the Olympics earlier tonight- (Carrying a Sig P220r) - something was happening in ...

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 68
Like Tree42Likes

Thread: "I'LL SHOOT YA !" : What Would You Do With This One ? :

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    erie PA
    Posts
    677

    "I'LL SHOOT YA !" : What Would You Do With This One ? :

    Bout 30' from where I was sitting in a restaurant-coffee shop watching the Olympics earlier tonight- (Carrying a Sig P220r) - something was happening in the parking lot near the front door, I wasn't aware of it til later but easily could have been out there or may have gone out to watch and help IF - or may have been walking in or out, I go there a lot.

    One of the young workers (lot of young people work there) was going into work about 10:00 pm, must have been working clean-up, the place closes at 1:00am. He cut someone off while driving near the restaurant or the other driver thought he did and he went full-road-rage, chasing the young worker's car and when he drove into the parking lot at the restaurant followed him, got out of his car when the young guy did, who high-tailed into the restaurant. The young (and small) manager and a number of workers went out to stop the guy from going in which he was going to do and the police were called. The guy then starts screaming violently at the young manager and the last thing he says is: "I'll Shoot Ya!". Luckily someone told him cops were on the way, he got in his car and quickly drove out of the lot, but they got his license number.

    Now, if I was out there or had gone out to watch and help if any such thing should happen - which in itself I'm not sure would be legal - and I heard someone say "I'll shoot ya!" I would draw and keep the gun on ready, not aimed at him - for this reason: I don't know if he has a gun and will shoot or not, but he just said he did and was, so if he did shoot, my waiting to find out would be catastrophic for the young man he's threatening - I can't outdraw someone who just pulled a gun out of his pocket and is preparing to shoot the kid and my hand just hit the hilt on my still holstered one. That's too late - I can't afford to "wait and see" is my feeling - on the other hand if he has no gun or at least doesn't shoot which is what happened, I've just drawn a deadly weapon on an unarmed man.

    I'm going to call the local Permit Office tomorrow and ask the legality of this, but:

    If you didn't know the legality like I don't, and were faced with this situation just at the point the guy - who's been behaving in a rage - says "I'll Shoot Ya!" to this young guy a few feet away, what would YOU do. I know what I'd likely do, but I'm confused by such a situation nevertheless.

    Thanks for any feedback, ideas.
    Last edited by walleye; August 1st, 2012 at 04:19 AM.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    3,055
    Be a good witness. Good work on seeking clarification from your issuing authority, and you might consider advanced training in your area. But in any case, making sure you are safe behind a piece of cover while giving an accurate description of what you see (which may not be the whole story of events leading up to the encounter) is universally legal.
    mprp, 357and40, baren and 4 others like this.
    Try not to screw up so bad they name the screw up after you. (Station 15 saying)

    NRA Certifed Instructor

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array Dandyone's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    614
    There's no easy or right answer here precisely because we have laws about such things, and that law, as i understand it, is the disparity of force rule.

    My thought is that there is no reason to believe that "I'll shoot ya!" is an idle threat. By making such a statement, I would have to assume that the guy has a gun, whether I've seen it or not, an that means disparity of force.

    I don't think you have *see* the weapon if he tells you he has one, or at least infers it.
    GGs
    BGs

    ”Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.”

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    California
    Posts
    3,044
    I have a feeling that you will be in hot water if you ever draw a weapon in response to what someone only says.
    Once, Bad Bob, CJM and 1 others like this.
    Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME

    Crossman 760 BB/Pellet, Daisy Red Ryder, Crossman Wrist Rocket, 14 Steak Knives, 3 Fillet Knives, Rolling Pin-14", Various Hunting Knives, 2 Baseball Bats, 3 Big Dogs and a big American Flag flying in the yard. I have no firearms; Try the next house.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Array Dandyone's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    614
    To be clear, I was merely making the statement that "I'll shoot ya!" suggests that disparity of force may be present, and if it is not, the intent of the BG/hothead is to make you think that there is in fact a disparity of force.

    Somehow 1911247 made the jump from my statement to a suggestion that one would be justified in actually pulling the trigger because of the verbal threat.

    And, to mprp, drawing a weapon can be done with out drawing a weapon "on someone".

    Furthermore, there is quite a bit of gray area between discreetly pulling one's weapon partially or wholly out of a holster and 'brandishing' - the latter having to do with the manner and intent. Good discussion here: Brandishing a Weapon, Gun or Firearm | California Penal Code 417 PC

    All that said, I would not personally do anything more than get my hand on my pistol grip, and I would only do that if I was close to the person being threatened. In the OP's case, it is not clear how close he was to the manager or the worker. In my book, you have to be loved like kin for me to put my life on the line...

    If those personal bonds were not there, I would not hang around.

    In fact, I would do the same even if I was the guy that was being threatened.
    Last edited by Dandyone; August 1st, 2012 at 03:09 AM. Reason: needed clarity
    GGs
    BGs

    ”Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.”

  6. #6
    Member Array Ionracas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    459
    Depends on the guys hands.

    If I cant see them because they are in his pockets that would meet enough criteria for fear of imminent danger. I would likley take cover and draw.

    If his hands are visible, maybe flailing around in anger, I would uncover and check my surroundings for cover.

    If he presents a weapon, even a knife, its a no brainer.
    "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you can not confirm their validity."
    -Abraham Lincoln

    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky. dangerous animals."
    -Agent K

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    California
    Posts
    3,044
    Quote Originally Posted by Dandyone View Post
    To be clear, I was merely making the statement that "I'll shoot ya!" suggests that disparity of force may be present, and if it is not, the intent of the BG/hothead is to make you think that there is in fact a disparity of force.

    Somehow 1911247 made the jump from my statement to a suggestion that one would be justified in actually pulling the trigger because of the verbal threat.

    And, to mprp, drawing a weapon can be done with out drawing a weapon "on someone".

    Furthermore, there is quite a bit of gray area between discreetly pulling one's weapon partially or wholly out of a holster and 'brandishing' - the latter having to do with the manner and intent. Good discussion here: Brandishing a Weapon, Gun or Firearm | California Penal Code 417 PC

    All that said, I would not personally do anything more than get my hand on my pistol grip, and I would only do that if I was close to the person being threatened. In the OP's case, it is not clear how close he was to the manager or the worker. In my book, you have to be loved like kin for me to put my life on the line...

    If those personal bonds were not there, I would not hang around.

    In fact, I would do the same even if I was the guy that was being threatened.
    That would probably be better but still could be sketchy depending on the crowd and who can see you as possibly a part of the problem if they were to happen upon you without knowing what's really going on. Takes us back to other threads regarding "knowing what's going on from the beginning before getting involved" thing. You might be surprised at how many people would just take care of you because they thought you were the threat. This guy threatening my family like that? You bet my hand will be on my gun but it doesn't clear leather until he moves for his and I can reasonably believe that he has one. And chances are I would be in the middle of that one though but not the other.
    Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME

    Crossman 760 BB/Pellet, Daisy Red Ryder, Crossman Wrist Rocket, 14 Steak Knives, 3 Fillet Knives, Rolling Pin-14", Various Hunting Knives, 2 Baseball Bats, 3 Big Dogs and a big American Flag flying in the yard. I have no firearms; Try the next house.

  8. #8
    Moderator
    Array Bark'n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    West Central Missouri
    Posts
    9,916
    Anticipating what's going to happen can be a real double edge sword. It can save your life, or buy you a seat at the defendants table.

    As a law abiding citizen in this case, you're the one who has to be right. No one said it's going to be an easy thing to determine, or that things will be cut and dry. There are going to be a lot of grey areas in situations like this. The more knowledgeable a person is regarding the rules of lethal force, the more certain you can be in your decision.

    In something like this, I'm going to have to wait and see if the person makes what can be considered a furtive movement commonly associated with drawing a weapon before I draw mine. Just because the road rager said "I'll shoot you," during the heat of an emotional exchange is not enough reason to display your weapon if he is visibly unarmed at the time.

    What I would be doing is positioning myself in a more advantageous position behind cover and watching closely what happens next.

    With that said, it's extremely possible, I would not be able to get my gun out in time to save the restaurant worker from getting hurt. But I'm not his personal body guard and if I ended up drawing down on an unarmed man, I've just committed a felony in most jurisdictions and I'm not going to risk that.
    mprp, walleye, WHEC724 and 2 others like this.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array Dandyone's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    614
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911247 View Post
    Correction. I made the jump from brandishing a firearm * security cameras see what general view doesnt* and police see security footage........A.E. charges on the brandisherto follow, to possibly shooting someone, Drawing a weapon shows intent to shoot. I am a NRA Firearms Instructor. I teach these laws to students.

    Drawing you weapon because a man said "ill shoot ya" discretely or not. IS a bad idea. A Firearm is used to defend someones life when they believe it is about to be immediately taken. Or to defend loss of limb. A verbal threat does not constitute any of those, and if someone is that quick to go to drawing a weapon......they need more training. Also they will have a very hard time convincing a jury or judge or DA that they felt their lives were in such peril that drawing a loaded weapon was necessary. Especially when LEO's arrive. Even more so if they find no weapon on the guy with a big mouth.

    As i said drawing a weapon suggest you are ready to disperse such force towards a 3 word sentence. Which is overkill. and paranoia. However getting ready to draw if needed is much more acceptable.

    Our weapons stay in our holsters until they NEED to come out and there is no other option Ladies and Gents. not just because they can. Believing otherwise will get you in hot water. In ANY state.
    You've clearly made an important point, one which I do not argue, and have not argued. From a legal perspective, it is always better to turn and burn, especially if the threat is not directed at you or a loved one. Otherwise, you will be rolling the dice with a jury precisely because the question posed by the OP touched on a gray area.

    Part of the problem with hypothetical, "what would you do?" questions like this is that the reader is responsible for painting the scene in their own mind, and the scene will be different from one person to another. We would really need to be there to actually understand the nuance which actually guides us through gray areas.

    Clearly, the BG in the story above was bluffing because he ran off (well, I suppose he could be plotting his shooting spree as we speak...). But at the time he screamed, "I'll shoot ya!", there would be no way to know that he was bluffing.

    Like I said, my objective will be to:
    1) avoid conflict if at all possible
    2) if conflict arises try to diffuse the situation, even if I know I am in the right
    3) if the situation escalates, get out or seek cover
    4) if I can't do any of these, and the attacker keeps coming, I'll take some lumps
    5) if the threat of lumps suddenly turns into the threat of lacerations or punctures, I will then be forced to come out swinging.
    GH likes this.
    GGs
    BGs

    ”Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.”

  10. #10
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    erie PA
    Posts
    677
    Quote Originally Posted by Dandyone View Post
    There's no easy or right answer here precisely because we have laws about such things, and that law, as i understand it, is the disparity of force rule.

    My thought is that there is no reason to believe that "I'll shoot ya!" is an idle threat. By making such a statement, I would have to assume that the guy has a gun, whether I've seen it or not, an that means disparity of force.

    I don't think you have *see* the weapon if he tells you he has one, or at least infers it.
    Yes, that's my feeling too - after he announces it, then waiting until you see it puts the CCW, to me, in an impossible position, or close to it and the person he just announced it too completely vulnerable if you're the only one with a gun. It may even be enough to shoot, although if it turned out - like it did - he had no weapon and you shot him, well.......... not going to be an easy case. However, I would not do that, but once he announces, getting your weapon out at ready seems like it SHOULD be allowed, course what should be and is can be very different things.

  11. #11
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    erie PA
    Posts
    677
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911247 View Post
    True. However saying "ill shoot ya" doesnt mean he can. nor is he going to. And if you shoot him, and they find no weapon............your in hot water. Thats why i said i would wait to draw until i saw him go for a weapon, then i would draw. But a idle threat of 'ill shoot ya" in my book does not warrant deadly force. If i shot everyone who had ever verbally threatened me..........heck the town next to mine would have a population of zero. Restraint can help you a lot. Now if he has a gun in his hand and says it..........that changes everything.
    I would think you legally could shoot if he said that and immediately stuck his hand in his pocket as if to pull out the gun. The Law making you listen to someone announce he's going to shoot you, then making you just watch as he makes a rapid action of shoving is hand in his pocket right after he says it, - well I can't see the Law would also make you wait until you saw the gun - and you'd see it when out. That would be like saying: "You have a legal right to save your life as long as you are sure someone is going to kill you which means once you are dead. At that point you are free to take lethal action to stop the attack Anything before that is considered Murder in the Second Degree"

  12. #12
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    erie PA
    Posts
    677
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911247 View Post
    +1....a verbal threat is not the same as a physical. Hence why there are different charges between verbal terrorizing, and battery. If we all shot everyone who threatened us. the world population would go down really fast, and we would all be in jail.
    But he's not just threatening you, he's telling you he's going to shoot you NOW.

  13. #13
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    erie PA
    Posts
    677
    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Anticipating what's going to happen can be a real double edge sword. It can save your life, or buy you a seat at the defendants table.

    As a law abiding citizen in this case, you're the one who has to be right. No one said it's going to be an easy thing to determine, or that things will be cut and dry. There are going to be a lot of grey areas in situations like this. The more knowledgeable a person is regarding the rules of lethal force, the more certain you can be in your decision.

    In something like this, I'm going to have to wait and see if the person makes what can be considered a furtive movement commonly associated with drawing a weapon before I draw mine. Just because the road rager said "I'll shoot you," during the heat of an emotional exchange is not enough reason to display your weapon if he is visibly unarmed at the time.

    What I would be doing is positioning myself in a more advantageous position behind cover and watching closely what happens next.

    With that said, it's extremely possible, I would not be able to get my gun out in time to save the restaurant worker from getting hurt. But I'm not his personal body guard and if I ended up drawing down on an unarmed man, I've just committed a felony in most jurisdictions and I'm not going to risk that.
    That's careful reasoning - what we need to practice beforehand, so rationality is still there in the middle of a crisis. That's the important message I got from your post. I think a good idea is for me to call my permit office and run this by them like I said - I'm not confused about the Law in my area and most situations I hear of or think of. But this one does create confusion and that's not good, it's very bad, in a crisis, likely you will be in doubt and uncommitted fully to what you are doing. So, dealing with my confusion about this type of situation I think is important NOW. THEN it's too late. That's why I posted. I'm 64, but old dogs still need to learn new tricks.

    I also want to ask them about disparity of force with me, I have some serious medical conditions that would make it close to impossible to run far to escape or to fight someone off physically even if they didn't have a gun, I mean a big guy with the intent of a real beating. It would be easy to fatally injure me. Luckily, I put that down on my original permit application, so it is an official record of the State.

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    California
    Posts
    3,044
    Quote Originally Posted by walleye View Post
    But he's not just threatening you, he's telling you he's going to shoot you NOW.
    Ability, opportunity, jeopardy. If you don't know the gun is there then the ability is not yet in the equation to justify deadly force.
    Hoganbeg, stevem174 and First Sgt like this.
    Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME

    Crossman 760 BB/Pellet, Daisy Red Ryder, Crossman Wrist Rocket, 14 Steak Knives, 3 Fillet Knives, Rolling Pin-14", Various Hunting Knives, 2 Baseball Bats, 3 Big Dogs and a big American Flag flying in the yard. I have no firearms; Try the next house.

  15. #15
    Moderator
    Array Bark'n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    West Central Missouri
    Posts
    9,916
    Quote Originally Posted by walleye View Post
    But he's not just threatening you, he's telling you he's going to shoot you NOW.
    First of all, he's not threatening you. In the scenario, he is threatening someone else (the employee).

    Secondly all he did was place the person in jeopardy with the threat.

    Unless the opportunity and ability components are present, there is no legitimate lethal force response indicated at that particular point in time.

    It's my understanding of reading the scenario, they were not face to face, and no gun was present (or visible) so opportunity and ability are definitely not present. No doubt, all that can change very quickly but at that point in time, why draw your gun?

    In fact, the employee withdrew to the safety of the restaurant and the situation resolved itself. No gun play, no fight and no one was physically touched.

    In my opinion it is way too early to draw your gun. Especially since the threat is not directed at you.
    hogdaddy, mprp and stevem174 like this.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

acceptable time to draw a handgun
,
can i pull a gun if someone verbally threatens my life
,
can someone call police for verbal threat in road rage with no witnesses
,
can you carry a gun into a restaurant in south carolina
,
can you legally get in trouble for a verbal threat to someone you dont know
,
i'll shoot you threat seriously
,
if your threatened can you draw your gun low and ready legally
,
threaten to shoot someone without a gun present
,
what can happen with a verbal threat in road rage
,

what legal action can you take if someone uses a picture of you on a website.

,
what to do when an employee threatens to shoot you
,
what's the charge in pa for threatening someone with a gun
Click on a term to search for related topics.