Extra magazine?

[AZG23]

I guess this is a case of having to agree to disagree....I do appreciate your input

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[dansumner]

I think the idea behind a spare mag is that a magazine is the most fallable of the auto pistols design, but the most easily corrected by someone who is not a \'smith (if a spare is available). In relation to spare tires, one carries a spare tire because a flat tire is the most likely component to cease the function of the car (travel), but is easily corrected without much mechanical expertise.
As to the whole Murphy thing and spare mag, if you carry a gun, dont you do it because bad things can happen to you (Murphy), so couldn\'t Murphy happen to your most trusted and tested fire arm or Magazine?
Dont get me wrong, carry one or not, makes little difference to me. Probably never need it, I personally find it comforting knowing its available.
Also, if facts and stats indicate that most fights are over with no shots being fired, and the few fights involving shots are over in 1-3 rounds, shouldnt we all carry 2 shot derringers?
Dan

[Tangle]

Dan,
Good points.

It is curious to me that many feel that 3 to 6 rounds will always suffice, but nobody that I know of only carries 6 rounds in a 15 round magazine.

There seems to be some misunderstanding about the 2-3 shots fired. According to Ernst Langdon, that 2-3 shot stat came from an FBI study that found that police officers that DIED in gunfights only fired 2 - 3 shots. He also said that a study (maybe same study, I\'m not clear about that) showed that police officers that survived a gunfight fired an average of six shots!

[jdsumner]

Thanks for adding some clarity to the stats deal, Tangle. These are leo stats, tho right? Has anyone got any stats on ccw rounds fired?
BTW-Bumper got me squared away, so the 2 or 3 posts under dansumner are me. :P
My point was that we as non leo\'s rarely need any rounds, and if any, very few. But, that doesnt stop some of us from carrying pistols w 15 round capabilities. Its a nice added feature. So is an xtra mag, at least for me. I certainly dont fault anyone for not carrying one, just seems like insurance for a small price to me.

Dan

[jdsumner]

If I may be so bold as to interject in Mr. Armstrong and AZG23\'s \'what if'discussion. I think \'what if\'s'are in fact \'what if THIS SITUATION occurs to YOU? Most \'what if\'s'are based on something that has happened, and the responder had either a positive or negative outcome. If enough people have postive outcomes based on similar circumstances (what if\'s), then the technique or equipment used by them is taught or endorsed as being the answere to the \'what if\'. If the outcomes are negative, then their techniques fall to evolution. \'What ifs'are what gives us trainers, schools, new and updated equipment or time honored equipment and tools that work. Playing the \'what if'game helps to develope plans and reactions. There is nothing new under the sun, therefore, the \'what if'has happened, and there was a reaction to it by a responder, and based on their success or failure, a plan can be formed.
As to the spare mag issue at hand, I didnt carry one untill I began to do some IPSC and early IDPA style shooting. When I attended the first few IPSC matches, I noticed that just under the stress of competition and the clock, malfunctions were more than if one was observing shooters just shooting at the range. I also noted a higher percentage of shooters experiencing malfs did not dally with the mag in the gun, but ejected it and inserted a new mag. These guys were better than me, so what made me think I could clear the gun quicker than they. Their answere was another mag. That then became my answere.
Ps, as a note, guess what the most common misque I noticed was? It was a mag ejected accidently when handling hurriedly, or dropped during \'tacticalreloads. Not one shooter stopped to pick up his mag if not behind cover/concealment, but inserted the spare mag he carried.

Just my feelings, gentlemen, carry on.

Dan

[David Armstrong]

There seems to be some misunderstanding about the 2-3 shots fired. According to Ernst Langdon, that 2-3 shot stat came from an FBI study that found that police officers that DIED in gunfights only fired 2 - 3 shots.

Ernie is the one with the misunderstanding, apparently. The numbers for gunfights don\'t change much based on whether the officer lived or died or was wounded or anything else. The standard number for shots fired in a LE gunfight has floated between 2 and 3 for decades, as has the distance, 21 feet or less.

[David Armstrong]

\'What ifs'are what gives us trainers, schools, new and updated equipment or time honored equipment and tools that work. Playing the \'what if'game helps to develope plans and reactions.

No disagreement. My point is that not all \"what ifs\" are created equal. You probably don\'t go around carrying a.416 Rigby around with you. But WHAT IF you are suddenly charged by an elephant? That is my only issue, that one should base their decisions on a realistic study of the facts, not some wild fantasy.
The tactical reloads you mentioned are a great example of the problem. How much time have we spent learning the tactical reload, and how much training time has been spent trying to hone it to a fine skill? Quite a bit. But the only place a tactical reload seems to matter is in “what if” land. I say that because a number of trainers and researchers have actively been looking for a case where the rounds saved in a tactical reload ever made the difference in the outcome of a fight. So far, after about 10 years of hunting, not a single incident has been found. SO why do we do tactical reloads? ONLY because of “what if”!

[Tangle]

David,

I\'m not challanging your view nor trying to exalt Ernst, but Ernst has done a lot of diverse training for a lot of years and has had access to a lot of info about shootings. He was very emphatic about the number of shots fired. I don\'t know why he would promote such a claim if the figures didn\'t support them.

[sensei]

If I\'m here in Friendswood I just carry my handgun. Either a Glock 30, a Kahr PM9, or on rare occasions a S&W model 13-.357. I have 2 spare mags (and a hundred rounds) for each gun in the glove compartment in my truck. So I just have to fight my way to my truck.

If I go up into Houston I carry at least one extra mag on my person, still have the extras in my truck, a machete, a baseball bat, and anything else I can think of. Would mount a 50 caliber machine gun if I could.

sensei

[centuryhouse]

Houston crime rates seem to be skyrocketing - is that acurate? I lived there back in 1982-3 and it wasn\'t nice then, but I hear a lot more crime reports lately... If so, what is the contributing factor causing an increase?

dw

[David Armstrong]

I\'m not challanging your view nor trying to exalt Ernst, but Ernst has done a lot of diverse training for a lot of years and has had access to a lot of info about shootings. He was very emphatic about the number of shots fired. I don\'t know why he would promote such a claim if the figures didn\'t support them.

I would lay some pretty good odds that Ernst has done a lot of training and shooting, but very little actual research on shootings. He probably got that bit of info from a fairly popular writer who used it in a few articles before finding out it was incorrect. Even the idea is a bit goofy, if you think about it. The FBI \"Officers Killed\" summary does not even look at the officers who survive a shooting, so there would be no way to compare those who survive with its data. The fact that nobody has ever been able to provide a source for national numbers concerning police shootouts makes the whole thing somewhat implausible. You know we don\'t even have a reliable source of information regarding the number of people shot by the police each year, much less the details? The details we do have, such as the NYPD SOP9 and other similar research show very little change in the statistics over the years.

[Tangle]

Originally posted by David Armstrong
I would lay some pretty good odds that Ernst has done a lot of training and shooting, but very little actual research on shootings.

Actually he has trained SWAT, FBI, Marines, etc. for years.

[i]Originally posted by David Armstrong]
He probably got that bit of info from a fairly popular writer who used it in a few articles before finding out it was incorrect.

I don\'t think he got the info from \"anybody\" or their writings. In talking with him, I got the distinct impression he is basing his conclusions on reports, studies, etc. He really doesn\'t seem like the kind that follows somebody\'s writings.

[i]Originally posted by David Armstrong]
...Even the idea is a bit goofy, if you think about it. The FBI \"Officers Killed\" summary does not even look at the officers who survive a shooting, so there would be no way to compare those who survive with its data.

Then the reference about officers that survive a gunfight came from a different study. I really doubt that Ernst would fabricate info and claim it came from studies.

[jojosdad]

2 spare mags when using a shoulder holster, 1 in iwb holder when carrying iwb, plus speed strip for my bug.

[knowledgegreen]

Normally I carry two extra mags for my P225.

[F350]

jdsumner-

shooters experiencing malfs did not dally with the mag in the gun, but ejected it and inserted a new mag.

I shot ISPC for years and also found the quickest way to clear a malfunction was to eject the mag first, and as a result I carry 2 extra mags for my Glocks. Without functioning mags you just have an ineffective club