Extra magazine?

This is a discussion on Extra magazine? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; 15 + 1 in the glock, a second 15 round mag on my belt....

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  1. #76
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    15 + 1 in the glock, a second 15 round mag on my belt.

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  3. #77
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    If I may add a thought-

    My personal philosophy is that, as a civilian whose life is not spent learning how to fight, I should be worried about my own defense and only in the most desperate of situations would I ever attempt to save another person.

    Let me clarify what I mean by that. If an old woman is being beaten to death by a crowbar wielding lunatic, I would get involved because there is no time to wait for the police to show up. Now if I saw three young men beating another man, that's still not right but that's a call to the police and nothing more on my part unless they turns the crowbars on me next. I would have fled at that point of course.

    I say this to point out that in 99 out of 100 situations, it will not be obvious who is who. It may be tempting to think you're going to make some kind of citizen's arrest, but I would not try it.

    A LEO on the other hand, may very well encounter those situations and HAVE to get involved. That's one time where you're looking at a situation where someone armed with only a pistol may very well need to fire 30-40 rounds in a hurry. There is a definite need to carry a large quantity of ammunition about.

    The point I'm trying to make is that it is clear that as a civilian, even an armed one, unless the SHTF scenario is in place, you realistically shouldn't need to carry a large quantity of ammunition for your intended, responsible purpose.

    Even in some 5000 FBI cases, it was found that the vast majority of them ended in 5 shots or less, and it doesn't seem the ability to quickly reload can be proven to make a difference in any circumstances.

    So why then do so many CCW holders carry some 30-50 rounds of ammunition?

    Simple. Magazine malfunctions. They're the bane of the automatic pistol. Were I to carry an automatic pistol, I too would make every effort to carry two spare magazines. And why not load them fully? There is no reason not to.

    But for those of us who carry a revolver, well your only real course of action in case of a malfunction is seriously a second gun. However, just as most savvy CCW'ers who carry an automatic wisely take the precaution of bringing extra magazines, most people who carry a revolver take sensible precautions to make sure it's a quality piece in good condition that's as clean as a whistle. They'll also bring a spare speedloader or speedstrip.

    Thus, you could conceivably say that a well practiced CCW auto user with 45 rounds of ammunition on their person is just as well prepared as a well practiced revolver user with perhaps only 10 or 12 rounds on their person. The reason most fire fights the FBI was involved in ended in 5 shots or less being fired is that marksmanship won the day. I guess the end lesson is that for my purpose of carrying, learning how to use it is far more important than what I use.

    The quantity of ammunition carried on your person in day to day life seems almost meaningless so long as you have one reload ready for whatever you choose to use.

    As my grand daddy used to say "If you're such a bad shot it takes more than 6 shots to solve the problem in the first place, you probably never had a chance to begin with."

    He favored no particular type of handgun, but was quite proficient with all platforms and calibers. I would like to emulate him some day.

  4. #78
    Distinguished Member Array David Armstrong's Avatar
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    It is just as sound to argue that the above can/will happen, as it is to argue that it won't happen - gunfights are not predictable, they are what they are.
    I'm sorry, but that is just not correct. Certain events are more likely to happen than other events. Gunfights are predictable, and what will happen in a gunfight can be predicted. The only question is how accurate those predictions might be.

  5. #79
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    David,
    if you would take a moment, Sir, please clarify the statement: "Gunfights are predictable",
    and "what will happen in a gunfight can be predicted".

    Short of 'calling someone out', how does one predict one will be in a gunfight? And, in those rushing, fleeting moments when all the bad stuff is happening, how does one predict what is/will be happening?

    I'm not sure I'm following you, so help me understand these statements.

    Thanks,

    Dan

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    SOOOOO....The FBI agents in Miami just didn't predict properly

  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    So why then do so many CCW holders carry some 30-50 rounds of ammunition?
    Not sure where you are getting your information, but I don't think many CCW holders carry 30-50 rounds on their person. I doubt if most even carry an extra magazine, though they should.

    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    Simple. Magazine malfunctions. They're the bane of the automatic pistol. Were I to carry an automatic pistol, I too would make every effort to carry two spare magazines.
    Magazine malfunctions are something that can happen, obviously, but the "bane of the automatic pistol". Really? I think that you are mistaken or lack the experience required to make that kind of judgement with any basis in fact. One extra magazine is probably enough, but two is an option if you aren't confident in the integrity of your weapon, it's magazines or your abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    However, just as most savvy CCW'ers who carry an automatic wisely take the precaution of bringing extra magazines, most people who carry a revolver take sensible precautions to make sure it's a quality piece in good condition that's as clean as a whistle. They'll also bring a spare speedloader or speedstrip.
    Are you saying that those that carry an autoloader don't normally carry a quality weapon in good condition and properly cleaned? I believe your bias for wheel guns is hanging out a bit far here. Carriers of each have the same elements in being prepared. You should carry at least one reload for your weapon of choice whether that be a revolver or an autoloader. More is okay, it's a personal preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    Thus, you could conceivably say that a well practiced CCW auto user with 45 rounds of ammunition on their person is just as well prepared as a well practiced revolver user with perhaps only 10 or 12 rounds on their person.
    Conceivably you could say that if you weren't concerned with the truth. Where on God's green earth are you getting these ideas? Or are these simply your "assumptions"? You believe it takes 45 rounds for an autoloader to be as "prepared" as someone carrying a wheel gun with 10-12 rounds? If you are actually researching this bit of wisdom, you better find another source. If they are your assumptions, you need to base them on experience not pull them out of thin air.

    I do agree with your grandaddy, though. To you, I think he would say, "Boy, you need to get your facts straight".

  8. #82
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly Tactician. Let me clarify please.

    First of all, most CCW practicioners I know IRL carry a high capacity automatic. Therefore it is reasonable to say that many auto users would be carrying 30-50 rounds of ammunition on their person.

    For instance if I were carrying my P-89 with 2 spare magazines, that would be 51 rounds of ammunition on my person. If I were carrying a PT-111 Pro, I'd be carrying I think 36 rounds on my person.

    Even if I were only carrying one spare magazine, I'd still have some 34 rounds on me.

    This is all assuming there's not one in the chamber either. It's simple to see someone carrying an automatic is carrying a lot of ammunition almost by default assuming they pack spare magazines. Even if they're using a single stack that only holds 6 rounds, that's still some 18 rounds of firepower.

    The weakest point of any given automatic pistol is the magazine in most cases. The pistol itself may be 100% utterly reliable and accurate, but it's only as strong as the little plastic plate on the bottom of that magazine.

    It's kind of like how if the cylinder on my revolver locks up for whatever reason, I'm in a bad way. Thus you could say a revolver's bane is a fault with its cylinder.

    Now yes other mechanical things can and do go wrong I am sure, but these seem to be the most likely things to occur to me. Correct me if I am wrong.

    And if you're going to carry one magazine, why not carry two unless you're carrying it in a pocket or something? I've seen way more double magazine pouches than single magazine pouches in my lifetime. It seems they don't really take up that much more real estate.

    To be fair, the assumption underlying the whole argument is that when comparing the two formats, it is a sensible precaution for someone carrying an automatic to:

    #1. Make sure it's clean and in good condition.
    #2. Select ammo that will feed well.
    #3. Carry spare magazines, preferably two. You might have a malfunction, and there no reason not to carry two in most circumstances.

    It is equally sensible for someone using a wheelgun to:

    #1. Make sure it's clean and in good condition.
    #2. Select ammo that won't "travel".
    #3. Check the timing on the cylinder regularly.
    #4. Carry a reload. No reason not to.

    The research tells us that in a real gunfight, it is highly probable that only 5 shots or less will be fired.

    Thus, it is extremely likely that even with a high capacity pistol, one will only need discharge 5 rounds or less. Anything more should be unnecessary I hope! And from what I've read, heard, and otherwise absorbed, a handful of shots seems to be all that really ever happens in a given altercation. I've never heard of anyone having to fire a double digit number of shots in self defense, not even people who probably weren't good marksmen.

    Not once have I been made aware of any incident short of a full on war, home invasion, or law enforcement situation where it was necessary to possess a level of firepower greater than what most small snubbies can produce.

    Thus, it would occur to me that as long as the user is well practiced, the firearm is in good condition, and the proper precautions are taken, any given firefight is extremely likely to end the same way regardless of the physical form the tool takes.

    Therefore I conclude that although it is counterintuitive, an individual carrying just a few rounds of ammunition is in all likelihood just as ready as an invidual carrying a fairly large quantity of ammunition. The thing that seems to dictate how much ammo one carries is one's own personal choice of firearm, so therefore I arrive my strange sounding but true, within limits, conclusion.

    I'm sorry I offended you, but I hope the clarification helps. I would like to add that it's all within limits and based on what I've heard about, read, etc. I don't go get in gunfights every day, so for all I know it really does take the ability to fire 30 rounds quickly to be properly prepared to protect one's self. In all honesty I don't know. I'm not a SEAL or a LEO and don't pretend to be.

    I think it's quite ridiculous to say anyone has an edge on me in the arena of protecting myself because their tool has the physical capability of firing more ammo. If they shoot better than I do, that's a different story.
    Last edited by Euclidean; January 26th, 2005 at 08:09 PM.

  9. #83
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    Excerpts from a post on GT:
    I guess they didn't know about statistics, research, and every shot is a hit.




    The cash register at Shoat's Grocery and Package Store in Oglethorpe County held just $300 Monday when the two teenagers walked in....Both teens wound up dead.

    "I'd have given it to them. Our insurance would have covered it," said Gloria Turner, who has owned the store for eight years with her husband....

    ...The second teen pulled a white skullcap over his face, pushed Turner to the cash register and demanded money. "I was about to give it to them . . . when the first guy says, 'You're not moving fast enough,' and pulls out a gun," Turner said Tuesday.

    The teen aimed the gun at her husband and fired. The bullet missed. His gun jammed.
    That was enough for Doster, who pulled out a .380 from his pocket. At the same time, his wife grabbed the 9 mm she kept under under the counter. Both began firing at the teenagers, who ran to the back of the store for cover. A full-fledged gunbattle erupted. The teens crouched behind a meat counter. The one with the gun popped up every few seconds to fire another round. The unarmed teen kept shouting, "Shoot them! Shoot them!" while tossing at the couple whatever items he could get his hands on, Turner said.

    The exchange of gunfire lasted less than five minutes "but it felt like hours," Turner said. She remembered firing with one hand and dialing 911 with the other.

    Deputies arrived four minutes later to find the store littered with shell casings. Both teenagers lay sprawled on the floor one shot several times, the other with a bullet in his chest, said Sheriff Mike Smith...

  10. #84
    vmo
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    I always carry one extra fully charged magazine for whatever primary weapon I'm carrying. The only reason I carry it is to remedy a feed problem. If I have to reload, I'm in really deep s**t, and most likely 8 more rounds won't help.

    vmo

  11. #85
    Member Array Zach S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tactician
    Are you saying that those that carry an autoloader don't normally carry a quality weapon in good condition and properly cleaned?
    I rarely clean mine. But they function flawlessly even when they're "2000 rounds dirty." Only my GMs get that dirty, I guess my 4" has only been about neglected for about 600 rounds. Even then it ran great. A boresnake and some oil goes a long way IMO.

  12. #86
    Distinguished Member Array David Armstrong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdsumner
    David,
    if you would take a moment, Sir, please clarify the statement: "Gunfights are predictable",
    and "what will happen in a gunfight can be predicted".
    Sure. Gunfights, like virtually everything else, can be studied and analyzed to find out the normal events and the abnormal events. We can predict, with great certainty, that a certain percentage of gunfights will be resolved without a shot being fired. We can also predict, with great certainty, that when shots are fires there will be a certain percentage of hits. We can also predict, with great certainty, how many shots will be fired, at what distance the fight will occur, how much time it will take, and so on. That is just simple descriptive statistics, and tell us what will happen in a gunfight. Now there will always be some room for error (that is the "+" and "-" stuff you see in surveys) but it still allows some basic understanding of what events are likely to occur so one can more accurately plan and train. Will you always be right? No. One can predict that also<G>!

  13. #87
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    Cool

    I only carry the one mag when outta the truck. I have two spares in the truck that are easy reach. Assuming I don't run into a "mob" when I'm away from the truck, I'd expect that since I practice a hell of a lot, I probably won't need more than one clip per "event" anyway. Of course if there are more than one badguy, and you are intent on emptying one mag per perpetrator, then perhaps a couple extra in the pocket is called for. However, always remember that there is a vicious breed of the human species out there called 'LAWYERS' and they have no mercy !!!

  14. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Armstrong
    Sure. Gunfights, like virtually everything else, can be studied and analyzed to find out the normal events and the abnormal events. We can predict, with great certainty, that a certain percentage of gunfights will be resolved without a shot being fired. We can also predict, with great certainty, that when shots are fires there will be a certain percentage of hits. We can also predict, with great certainty, how many shots will be fired, at what distance the fight will occur, how much time it will take, and so on. That is just simple descriptive statistics, and tell us what will happen in a gunfight. Now there will always be some room for error (that is the "+" and "-" stuff you see in surveys) but it still allows some basic understanding of what events are likely to occur so one can more accurately plan and train. Will you always be right? No. One can predict that also<G>!
    I'm afraid I have to disagree with this. First, past events indicate, they don't predict. I'm not nit pickin' over words, predicting a future event based on past events, is inexact to say the least and very situational dependent. While some aspects of a gunfight might be expected, they are far from predictable.

    Could you have predicted the events of the actual gunfight I posted above (four posts back)? No, you couldn't have - it wasn't that mythical average gunfight, whatever that is. What is an average gunfight anyway?

    Statistics don't predict or control gunfights. Statistics deals with past events and features of the events and can sometimes be used to extract trends. We can no more predict the time of, the progression of or the characteristics of a future gunfight by studying past gunfights any more than we can predict hurricanes based on previous hurricanes. If we could predict hurricanes, we could know well in advance when, what force, and what path a hurricane is going to take. The same is true of gunfights; we can extract features and look at trends and indicators but that's nothing like predicting how many BGs will shoot how many shots, or how many shots will be fired by the defender in a gunfight that hasn't happened yet.
    Last edited by Tangle; February 1st, 2005 at 08:25 PM.

  15. #89
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    I usually carry one spare mag along with my Surefire 6P in a pouch on my off-side. If I am wearing my shoulder rig then it's 2 mags and the Surefire. Never forget the importance of having that flashlight with you, it could be more important than a dozen spare mags since most lethal force encounters happen in the dark.
    As for the comments about a gunfight being predictable, who the h**l are you kidding other than yourself? No matter how much you train or practice for the one time you will have a deadly force encounter when it happens it won't be like anything you imagined.
    "You have the rest of your life to solve your problem, how well you do it may very well determine how long it lasts."
    Last edited by acparmed; February 3rd, 2005 at 02:06 AM.
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  16. #90
    Distinguished Member Array David Armstrong's Avatar
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    I'm afraid I have to disagree with this. First, past events indicate, they don't predict. I'm not nit pickin' over words, predicting a future event based on past events, is inexact to say the least and very situational dependent. While some aspects of a gunfight might be expected, they are far from predictable.
    You may disagree all you wish, but it doesn't change things. Basic social science research, which is what we are talking about here, while not perfect is far from inexact, particularly when you get into large numbers of events. And you use those past events to predict the future events. Again, you may not like it, you may disagree with it, but that is the way it works for all sorts of things, gunfights included. And the aspects of a gunfight are quite predictable because they are expected, and vice versa.
    [quote]Could you have predicted the events of the actual gunfight I posted above (four posts back)? No, you couldn't have - it wasn't that mythical average gunfight, whatever that is. What is an average gunfight anyway?[quote]
    No, you don't predict actual events, you predict the likelihood of certain events occurring. It is no different than calculating the likelihood of any events, which is so common and predictable that an entire industry has grown up around it--insurance. And by your own statement you recognize that this situation was not a normal occurrence. There are not average gunfights, there are gunfights that are normal and abnormal, and one can determine certain things, such as averages, from them. For example, we can use your shootout to add to the data base of "how often are reloads needed in a gunfight" information. And we would see that in this case the ability to reload the gun had no impact on the outcome of the fight.
    We can no more predict the time of, the progression of or the characteristics of a future gunfight by studying past gunfights any more than we can predict hurricanes based on previous hurricanes.
    Perhaps you are not aware of it, but we do predict hurricanes by studying past hurricanes. And as we learn more the prediction pattern gets better and better, just as it has been with tornadoes. And it is studying the characteristics of past gunfights that tells us what gunfights are like, which in turn can guide us in determining things like the equipment needed, what type of training is beneficial, and so on.

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