The .22 pistol and round for self defense...My take on it.

This is a discussion on The .22 pistol and round for self defense...My take on it. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Harryball All things being equal, and you had 10 lethal hits with both, which do you think would stop the threat? Not ...

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  1. #76
    Member Array JerryMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    All things being equal, and you had 10 lethal hits with both, which do you think would stop the threat? Not Kill, just stop the threat.
    that was not the issue in question, so would you fairly say 10 lethal hits with a 50 cal would be better ? were talking 22. capable or not, is what I am getting here....
    Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American GI. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cupcake View Post
    I just think it's ridiculously over-exaggerated. I'm questioning that several duds in a box of 500 is possible given a properly functioning firearm.
    Last Friday I had 5 duds out of one box of Winchester 333. I know for a fact it wasn't weapon related, I had 2 in what had been a stone reliable GSG-1911 with any .22s I've used, 2 in a brand new Ruger 10/22CRR, and 1 in a brand new Ruger Single-Ten.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

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  4. #78
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMac View Post
    that was not the issue in question, so would you fairly say 10 lethal hits with a 50 cal would be better ? were talking 22. capable or not, is what I am getting here....
    Lethal hits right? The individual could still kill you. IMO a .22 will kill, it just might take awhile for them to do so, by that time you might be dead. That is my point
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  5. #79
    Member Array RichB70's Avatar
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    I like the idea of a 22mag carry revolver. S&W 351pd 7 rounds 11oz 22mag.S&W 43c 8 rounds 11oz. these little revolvers are expensive but if its what you want??



    Rich

  6. #80
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    A simple challenge, Good Sir. Read the entire thread and honestly count how many people find rimfire to be less reliable than centerfire.

    I await your tally.
    I don't think anyone is arguing your point, just your numbers. I guess my handful is bigger than yours, to me a handful of 22 LR's would be about 50.
    My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

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  7. #81
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    .22 LR is a horrible choice for self-defense, if for no other reason than the fact that rimfire primers are very unreliable. Centerfire calibers should be used for self-defense. An average box of .22 LR has a whole handful of duds in it.
    Then don't use average boxes of ammo? Seriously. I'm like I hope just about everyone else here when it comes down to something vs nothing. There are a plethora of reasons why someone may or may not NEED to use a .22LR that a number of folks have already pointed out.

    As to the reliability/dud issue, buy better ammo. I don't plink every day, but I know if I don't feel like dealing with duds I don't use my bulk 500/1000 brick of the cheapest winchester stuff I found at the time. I KNOW there are duds. The last bulk brick I went through had a dud about every other 10rnd magazine.

    If I don't want duds I use a 50rnd box of CCI's and which type of CCI's depends on the reason for shooting. IF I'm just plinking a few off and trying to be quiet about it and not irritate the neighbor than the CCI CB Longs are great. I've only had 2 that I recall out of 2 the last 2 50rnd boxes fail to go bang.

    If I'm taking meat(granted small meat, but meat none the less), then I use the CCI Mini-Mags. I have yet to have them fail on me. I use them in both a Walther P22 and a Ruger 10/22. They both eat them all day long. It's a bit expensive, but at the end of the day, they go bang.

    I would think this would translate to SD. IF I were in a position to only be able to carry that little walther...I'm loading it with minimags. And I'll take that tiny .22 with the potential for a dud over a rock any day of the week.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
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  8. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    Then don't use average boxes of ammo? Seriously. I'm like I hope just about everyone else here when it comes down to something vs nothing. There are a plethora of reasons why someone may or may not NEED to use a .22LR that a number of folks have already pointed out.

    As to the reliability/dud issue, buy better ammo. I don't plink every day, but I know if I don't feel like dealing with duds I don't use my bulk 500/1000 brick of the cheapest winchester stuff I found at the time. I KNOW there are duds. The last bulk brick I went through had a dud about every other 10rnd magazine.

    If I don't want duds I use a 50rnd box of CCI's and which type of CCI's depends on the reason for shooting. IF I'm just plinking a few off and trying to be quiet about it and not irritate the neighbor than the CCI CB Longs are great. I've only had 2 that I recall out of 2 the last 2 50rnd boxes fail to go bang.

    If I'm taking meat(granted small meat, but meat none the less), then I use the CCI Mini-Mags. I have yet to have them fail on me. I use them in both a Walther P22 and a Ruger 10/22. They both eat them all day long. It's a bit expensive, but at the end of the day, they go bang.

    I would think this would translate to SD. IF I were in a position to only be able to carry that little walther...I'm loading it with minimags. And I'll take that tiny .22 with the potential for a dud over a rock any day of the week.
    For small game and or social work, I use CCI Mini-Mags myself.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
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  9. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    [G]guys wife had degenerative arthritis. The only recoil she could handle was from a .22. ... She was so frail that she could not hold a .22 pistol. ...an AR but that was too much....so he set her up with a Ruger 10/22 with a 30 round mag. [...] If a BG came in she could get up and just point and shoot. The dresser was by the door at 90 degrees so the BG would have to enter and turn to fire. She could have plugged him with 30 rounds quickly.
    I arrived at the exact same weapon configuration for a "women's and children's" home defense weapon for when I'm away, as well as the very same positioning (90 deg. angle to doorway). It worked quite well on a hardened violent home-invader thug (armed with 9mm & shank screwdriver) who kicked in the back door intent upon chasing down and killing my young son.

    The chase was a full-out sprint. From the time the door was kicked in, a chase ensued from one end of the house to the other, and someone was gunned-down was only 10-15 seconds.

    Ruger 10/22 dropped the sucker dead. Teen who shot intruder in Spring Branch home: 'I was scared' | khou.com Houston

    Frankly, I previously had serious reservations (something is better than nothing), but actually seeing that dead guy and a ton of his lung tissue on my floor made me think. Then hearing the detective & ME tech explain how quickly a .22 rifle works (not pistol), I had to totally reevaluate my position.

    Note, on humans, use at least 40-grain solid point ammo pushing at least 1,000 fps; it will punch right through a rib and even the sternum at close range when fired from a rifle. Do not use hollow points nor high velocity rounds under 40 grains (for small game and won't work quickly on humans).

  10. #84
    Member Array bcvojak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    .22 LR is a horrible choice for self-defense, if for no other reason than the fact that rimfire primers are very unreliable. Centerfire calibers should be used for self-defense. An average box of .22 LR has a whole handful of duds in it.
    Which is why you don't buy "average" ammo for defense.

    People spend $35+ for 20 rounds of some "super-duper", "one-shot-stop", "gun-writer-approved", "killer-ammo-of-the-month" for their 9mms, .40s, .45s, .38s and such. . But then load their .22 with Wally-Word discount special, or bulk pack ammo.

    Geez. . If you're going to carry a .22 firearm, shell out $10 for some CCI Velocitor or Stingers or similar! There is a reason why they cost $10. They have reliable primers and better over all quality control. I have Velocitors in my NAA mini-revolver that I use to take with me when when I walked the dog.

    I recently switched to a S&W 442 J frame. No doubt a better caliber, but my biggest complaint about the NNA revolver wasn't caliber. It was the fact that the complex reload procedure basically made it a 5 shots and you're out, gun.
    Somewhere in the Pacific NW

  11. #85
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    I don't care what caliber of gun you have, most people don't like holes of any kind in their body!!!
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    Tony

  12. #86
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    The only rimfire ammunition that I have had malfunction was a box that a guy (stupidly) left in his garage for the last five years. All that heat, cold and moisture sure did a number!

    If a .22lr weapon is all a person is comfortable with or able to handle due to hand strength then I applaud them for being willing to be armed and defend themselves. Would I rather see them with something that has more punch? Yep, but it's a whole lot better than complying with a rapist or robber.
    tricolordad and RichB70 like this.
    "It is your evil that will be sought by us. With every breath we will hunt them down. Each day we will spill their blood, until it rains down from the skies. Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal. These are principles that every man from every faith can embrace." -McManus twins Boondock Saints

  13. #87
    Member Array tricolordad's Avatar
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    The September 2012 issue of American Rifleman has an article called "Handgun Stopping Power. (pgsl 50-56)" It lists data using 10% ordnance gelatin using .22 Long Rifle, .32 North American Arms, .32 H&R Magnum, .380 ACP, 9mm Luger, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, 10MM, .45 ACP, .460 Rowland and .45 Colt.

    If you look at the .22lr section, they used CCI 32 gr. Stinger out of both 2.4 and 5" barrels. The penetration for each with the exception of the Stinger from a 2.4" barrel would seem to suggest that, provided you hit center of mass and keep repeatedly hitting it, that even with the mere 8 inches of penetration from the Stinger out of a 2.4" barrel, you would stop a threat DEAD, especially if you're hitting the chest and punching into the lungs.

    (And yes, I know it doesn't carry as much energy as 9mm, but not really sure that's an issue considering the stats and facts...

    I'll put the results below, but if it's against the rules, I'm sure a mod will let me know. I've cited the source above, so doubt it will be a problem.

    CCI 32-gr Stinger (2.4" barrel): 1012 fps velocity at 10'; 8 inches penetration; 1.61 expansion factor
    CCI 32-gr Stinger (5" barrel): 1283 fps velocity at 10'; 10 inches penetration; 1.38 expansion factor
    CCI 40-gr Velocitor (2.4" barrel): 833 fps velocity at 10'; 14 inches penetration; 1.00 expansion factor
    CCI 40-gr Velocitor (5" barrel): 1061 fps at 10'; 12 inches penetration; 1.34 expansion factor

    average .22 lr performance: 1047 fps velocity at 10'; 11 inches penetration; 1.33 expansion factor

    It's got a few advantages vs. say just for an example against Hornady Critical Defense in 9mm Luger: 115 gr 1119 fps at 10'; 10 inches penetration; 1.58 expansion factor.

    You've got less recoil which allows you to reacquire the target very quickly, you've got a better expansion factor, which comes into play even more so than the greater surface area of the 9mm as the .22lr round will tumble and 'bounce around' and you've got rate of fire. However, nothing trumps preparedness. If you draw at the same exact time as somebody carrying that 9mm round, you will probably get off the first round at the same time, the second slightly before and so forth, but if you're hit, it's not the same as drawing first, firing first and dropping the BG before he can get a shot off.

    Prepare, practice and become proficient with your .22 if you're going to carry it. Know the zones to hit, study up on human anatomy a little bit. It can't hurt.
    I carry one, but I practice with it almost every day USING the load that I am going to carry. But, having said that...it's not the only caliber I carry.

    edit: I took the 9mm sample from the same study and picked it at random by dropping my pencil and picking the load nearest the eraser. Not picking one over the other for any specific reason. I have carried the 115 gr Critical Defense, it is a good round. I haven't had many problems with it.
    Last edited by tricolordad; August 25th, 2012 at 11:33 AM. Reason: additional info

  14. #88
    Member Array tricolordad's Avatar
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    I see this getting argued in other threads daily, but not here anymore. Lets stick to the facts and leave opinion out of it.

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  16. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPanther95
    If you haven't drawn your weapon by the time a guy is 15 feet away from you, coming at you with a full head of steam, it doesn't matter if you a carrying a .45.
    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    At 15 feet, I have to agree. You'd be lucky to clear leather with any sidearm.
    That's the reasoning behind training to move offline while returning fire, instead of trying to stand and deliver...

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