Denied Indiana permit, mysterious police reports, Appeal impossible?? Please Help!!
This is a discussion on Denied Indiana permit, mysterious police reports, Appeal impossible?? Please Help!! within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have searched all over the internet, and I cannot find any other example of my situation. This site is very informative, and I'm hoping ...
August 16th, 2012 09:58 PM
Denied Indiana permit, mysterious police reports, Appeal impossible?? Please Help!!
I have searched all over the internet, and I cannot find any other example of my situation. This site is very informative, and I'm hoping that someone here might have some helpful advice to offer.
I recently bought my first handgun and began target shooting for fun. I decided to apply for a carry permit (in Indiana a permit is for both concealed and unconcealed). I've never had any mental illness, never been convicted of a single crime, and I have already passed multiple NICS (FBI background checks), for all my gun purchases. Hell, I'm 27 years old and never even had a single speeding or parking ticket! I figured that It would be a piece of cake, right?
I was very wrong. Here's where my nightmare begins...
From 2008-2010 I was dating an alcoholic "party girl" type. We had a house in a very quiet neighborhood of older folks, mostly widows and retirees. Every now and then, my girlfriend would get blacked-out drunk and throw a screaming fit. Over the course of 2 years, neighbors had called the police 4 times. There was never any violence of any type, just me sitting there getting yelled at. Police would show up, tell her to "sleep it off", and tell me to go spend the night with family and let her sober up. Nobody was ever arrested, no charges were ever filed, it was just a drunk girl yelling at 2 am. No big deal. Right?
After 3 and a half months of waiting on my permit, I received a hand-addressed letter from the local sheriff. It was only two sentences long. It said: "I am requesting to decline your firearms permit application due to cases, X, X, X, and X. If you have questions, please feel free to contact the Indiana State Firearms Section in Indianapolis."
And that was it. No contact information or anything. Just two sentences and a signature. It seemed odd to me.
I looked through the Indiana handgun licencing laws and found a vaguely written part about Local law enforcement determining whether someone is "a proper person" to be licensed. Ok, well I was discouraged, but I thought that it would be fairly simple to get a copy the reports, and I could appeal the decision by showing that I hadn't actually done anything wrong. After all, The FBI check has cleared me several times, this was just a local issue. I went to the county online database and searched the case numbers. Nothing came up. So then I went to the local police station and filled out a form at the records department, requesting information on the cases. Today, I received a phone call...
I was told that I would be allowed information for two of the 4 named cases. I was told that the third case was still being investigated and I was not allowed to see it, and that the local prosecuting attorney had the 4th case and I would have to request it from them, but it was unlikely that It would be released.
I honestly thought that she was joking with me. What the hell could be investigated? Getting yelled at? What could the prosecutor possibly charge me with? Disturbing the peace?? ...several years ago?? There are no charges against me, so what is going on?
I can't exactly defend myself, when I have no idea what I was accused of, now can I? I am picking up the available information tomorrow and making an appointment with a lawyer, but there is only 30 days to make an appeal. Even if a lawyer can get the information from those cases (which I doubt, from the sound of it.) , I'm sure that it will be way too late.
I'm not a felon, I'm not a crazy person, and I meet every single requirement for a handgun permit. I can legally buy any gun that I want, and I've been repeatedly cleared by the FBI national background check. I'm not a troublemaker, and I didn't commit any crimes, and I'm not being charged with anything. What exactly is happening here?
How can I be denied for reasons that I'm not allowed to know about?
How can I possibly make an appeal in this situation?
Has anyone else dealt with anything like this before?
Is this even legal??
I will be updating this post as things unfold, I'm preparing to survive on ramen for the next few months so I can pay the damn lawyer. This is insanely stupid. If I moved to the next county, none of this would even matter. Any thought or comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
August 16th, 2012 10:04 PM
Your situation sounds very difficult. And I don't mean to sound rude, but,
Your best bet is to get a good lawyer, who specializes in firearms issues, and listening to what he tells you, as opposed to random strangers on the internet.
Fortes Fortuna Juvat
Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor
August 16th, 2012 10:05 PM
I disagree, random strangers rock.
I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.
August 16th, 2012 10:12 PM
Lawyer up and have them proceed post haste. If that doesn't work, move to another county and apply. You don't have to move forever.
Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.
Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.
August 16th, 2012 10:19 PM
You may be able to file a FOIA with the responding department,
This should at least get you the police reports.
If I were in your shoes I would File a FOIA with the responding department and contact legal counsel immediately.
From USDOJ: OIP: Making a FOIA Request to DOJ
This will lay out the basics of what you need to do for the FOIA (note the form DOJ-361 is for information from the department of justice)
“If you are seeking records on yourself, you will be required to verify your identity. This verification is required in order to protect your privacy and to ensure that private information about you is not disclosed inappropriately to someone else. Whenever you request information about yourself you will be asked to provide either a notarized statement or a statement signed under penalty of perjury stating that you are the person who you say you are. You may fulfill this requirement by completing and signing Form DOJ-361. Alternatively, you may provide your full name, current address, and date and place of birth and either (1) have your signature on your request letter witnessed by a notary, or (2) include the following statement immediately above the signature on your request letter: "I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct. Executed on [date]." If you request information about yourself and do not follow one of these procedures, your request cannot be processed”
Mors est libertas
August 16th, 2012 10:23 PM
Well I was kind of hoping that someone here had dealt with something like this. I'm not exactly excited to shell out thousands of dollars to a lawyer because the local sheriff "don't want guns in his town." Rather frustrating, considering that I am 100% qualified for a permit and all.
August 16th, 2012 10:24 PM
Very awesome pfries, thank you very much for the information! This stuff can be quite difficult to find. I appreciate it greatly.
August 16th, 2012 10:26 PM
August 16th, 2012 10:26 PM
Indiana has two years, generally speaking, to charge you. Assuming the last police visit was prior to
August 16, 2010, the two years has elapsed. There are some technical reasons, legally speaking, that could have prevented the two years from tolling but that appears unlikely from the limited information you provided.
Absent further information your options are to hire an attorney or to make an appeal yourself. I would not allow the appeal timeline to pass or the state could argue you failed to avail yourself if administrative remedies before you filed suit (assuming that was the road you had to travel on).
So, hire an attorney immediately or do your own appeal. But be sure an appeal is timely filed.
August 16th, 2012 10:32 PM
Not sure about other jurisdictions, but I can speak to my own. When a police report is done, there are tons of options as to how the report is handled. My department does reports on a computer, which gets sent to the state and feds for some sort of statistical records keeping. Or something... Anyway, the patrol officer that handles the call does his report. The report can be catagorized in one of a few ways. How the report is catagorized determines if it is immediately public, and also determines if the report is pending investigation. If an officer responded to a drunk girl screaming at a guy, he may leave the report "pending", in case she (or you) ends up reporting some sort of assault or other outcome. Sometimes, that pending report wont be "unpended" if you will. You may have a couple reports that were made that are still "pending", even though they were simply verbal altercations. To be honest, having your name pop up in four reports in half as many years may raise some red flags. You may not be a party animal trouble maker, but you were dating one. For two years. The Sheriff may simply be using those reports to pass a little judgement.
The other scenario is that you are not telling us the other half of the story. I dont want to call you a liar, and I certainly wasnt there, but there are often more sides to a story. I dont know a whole lot of guys that would just sit there quietly and let a plastered woman scream at them. Said guy may raise his own voice to get her to quiet down. Once that happens, you guys are both screaming, and yeah, you are a neighborhood pain in the butt. Four times. In two years.
I'm just playing devils advocate for both sides, trying to give possible ideas as to why you are in the situation you are in. Please dont take it personally, as i'm only trying to demonstrate both sides. Either way, if you are telling the whole truth, and nothing but the truth....I wish you luck.
Welcome to DC
August 16th, 2012 10:35 PM
Very helpful, thank you very much. This is best advice that I have come across so far, you are all very helpful. I'm certain that it isn't my name, there are not that many "Keehn's" out there. Yes, I'm am lawyering up as soon as possible and tackling this issue head-on.
August 16th, 2012 11:01 PM
Well, if you are completely innocent and blameless then it becomes more than just being denied a permit.
It becomes an issue of principle and a matter of restoring your personal integrity & your good name.
That is reason enough to fork out some $$$ for an attorney. I know that I would.
August 16th, 2012 11:03 PM
Yes, I understand your doubt kb, however I found that the best defense in that situation was to simply shut up. Any word that came from my mouth simply fuled the fire, so to speak. 4 incidents in two years is a lot, but it was still a far cry from an everyday thing. Plus, she was the hottest woman that I was ever with, I lusted after her for almost 6 years before we got together. This made a lot of difference in the level of bs that I was willing to deal with in that situation. I understand your doubts, But I can shrug things off easily. "I'm a fat bald loser? Ok honey, whatever you say" And that's basically how it went. I'm a wuss, I avoid confrontation, I always have. I put her on a pedestal and she took full advantage of that. It happens. You put up with a lot to be with your dream girl, you know? It was a hard learned lesson, for sure.
August 16th, 2012 11:14 PM
Wow, They say Indiana is a "shall issue" state, but after skimming through Indiana Code IC 35-47-2-3, that is "may issue" A giant crock of poo. Being born and raised in california, I feel for you buddy.
August 16th, 2012 11:15 PM
Below info should be of use to you Dwizzle:
Indiana Code (IC) 35-41-4-2
Periods of limitation
Sec. 2. (a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a prosecution for an offense is barred unless it is commenced:
(1) within five (5) years after the commission of the offense, in the case of a Class B, Class C, or Class D felony; or
(2) within two (2) years after the commission of the offense, in the case of a misdemeanor.
(b) A prosecution for a Class B or Class C felony that would otherwise be barred under this section may be commenced within one (1) year after the earlier of the date on which the state:
(1) first discovers evidence sufficient to charge the offender with the offense through DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) analysis; or
(2) could have discovered evidence sufficient to charge the offender with the offense through DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) analysis by the exercise of due diligence.
What does this all mean? It means that if they were to attempt to charge you with a misdemeanor and the date of the alleged misdemeanor occurred prior to August 16, 2012, it is barred by Indiana Code. If they were to charge you with a Class B, C, or D felony they have five years from the date the alleged felony occurred to file charges. Exceptions to the statute of limitations include newly discovered DNA evidence (that could not have been discovered with due diligence) or if you departed the state for a period of time (departing the state can stop tolling of the statute of limitations). There are a few other exceptions that may or may not apply but you get the point.
See Indiana Code 35-41-4 for further information on the statute of limitations.
Keeping an investigation open does not prevent the tolling of the statute of limitations. Based on the above information and that which is in the provided Indiana Code link, there are few exceptions that would allow the time to be longer than two years as I assume it has to be a misdemeanor or you would have long been formally interviewed (not on site during the alleged disturbances) and would generally what they were looking at you for.
Also, Indiana Code 35-47-1-7 defines a "proper person" to be licensed as a person who:
(1) does not have a conviction for resisting law enforcement under IC 35-44-3-3
within five (5) years before the person applies for a license or permit under this chapter; (2) does not have a conviction for a crime for which the person could have been sentenced for more than one (1) year;
(3) does not have a conviction for a crime of domestic violence (as defined in IC 35-41-1-6.3), unless a court has restored the person's right to possess a firearm under IC 3-7-13-5;
(4) is not prohibited by a court order from possessing a handgun;
(5) does not have a record of being an alcohol or drug abuser as defined in this chapter;
(6) does not have documented evidence which would give rise to a reasonable belief that the person has a propensity for violent or emotionally unstable conduct;
(7) does not make a false statement of material fact on the person's application;
(8) does not have a conviction for any crime involving an inability to safely handle a handgun;
(9) does not have a conviction for violation of the provisions of this article within five (5) years of the person's application; or
(10) does not have an adjudication as a delinquent child for an act that would be a felony if committed by an adult, if the person applying for a license or permit under this chapter is less than twenty-three (23) years of age.
See Indiana Code 35-47-1
Finally, under Indiana Code 35-47-2-3, there are very specific reasons that are cause to deny a permit. They are:
(g) A license to carry a handgun shall not be issued to any person who:
(1) has been convicted of a felony;
(2) has had a license to carry a handgun suspended, unless the person's license has been reinstated;
(3) is under eighteen (18) years of age;
(4) is under twenty-three (23) years of age if the person has been adjudicated a delinquent child for an act that would be a felony if committed by an adult; or
(5) has been arrested for a Class A or Class B felony, or any other felony that was committed while armed with a deadly weapon or that involved the use of violence, if a court has found probable cause to believe that the person committed the offense charged.
In the case of an arrest under subdivision (5), a license to carry a handgun may be issued to a person who has been acquitted of the specific offense charged or if the charges for the specific offense are dismissed.
See Indiana Code 35-47-2
"Alcohol abuser" means an individual who has had two (2) or more alcohol related offenses, any one (1) of which resulted in conviction by a court or treatment in an alcohol abuse facility within three (3) years prior to the date of the application. (See Indiana Code 35-47-1-2)
"Drug abuser" means an individual who has had two (2) or more violations of IC 35-48-1, IC 35-48-2, IC 35-48-3, or IC 35-48-4, any one (1) of which resulted in conviction by a court or treatment in a drug abuse facility within five (5) years prior to the date of application. (See Indiana Code 35-47-1-4)
The key is to:
(1) Determine if the statute of limitations for a potential criminal prosecution has passed (See 35-41-4-2)
(2) Determine if you meet the definition of being a "proper person" under Indiana Code 35-47-1-7
(3) Determine if you there is cause to deny you a permit under Indiana Code 35-47-2-3
In other words, unless you have been convicted of a disqualifying offense, have a history of mental illness, or have documented evidence of being an alcohol or drug abuser, the local law enforcement officer's actions in denying you a permit would appear to be without foundation and easily appealed.
Do the legwork as much as you can before you see an attorney as it will keep your expenses down considerably. Finally, whatever attorney you choose be sure you check the Indiana Supreme Court Roll of Attorneys at Indiana Roll of Attorneys so you can be aware if your potential attorney has received discipline for misconduct.
Please know I am not an attorney and did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Last edited by NotMallNinja; August 16th, 2012 at 11:19 PM.
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