Do you feel safe at work?

This is a discussion on Do you feel safe at work? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ArmyMan Employers should be responsible for the gun lockers for the same reason employers are responsible for parking space: Public Accommodation. Thank ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
    Employers should be responsible for the gun lockers for the same reason employers are responsible for parking space: Public Accommodation. Thank you for taking the bait on that one by ignoring my brake-room locker qualifier
    Since when are they responsible for parking space? How many employers in New York city or Washington D.C. provide parking? Maybe five percent. How you get to work and home is your problem, not theirs. Although as part of their benefit package some will subsidize parking or Metro fare cards.
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  3. #77
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
    Employers should be responsible for the gun lockers for the same reason employers are responsible for parking space: Public Accommodation. Thank you for taking the bait on that one by ignoring my brake-room locker qualifier
    How exactly does one take the bait by ignoring it??????Do you fish often? You got to be kidding me. And again, an employer only needs to provide you what is required by law and for your job.

  4. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Since when are they responsible for parking space?
    Since their local City/county Planning Commission levied taxes against them to pay for parking lots, and/or required various parking structures to be built with local business contributions and tax grants, as regulated per the local Township ordinances.

  5. #79
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Facts please on that. Ya know every city and town is different in the US. There are plenty of places I have been where the employer did not provide parking. You parked on the street or took public transportation.

    And exactly where does it say that the employer has to provide parking for employees? I just a read a bunch of mumbo jumbo about taxes.

  6. #80
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
    Since their local City/county Planning Commission levied taxes against them to pay for parking lots, and/or required various parking structures to be built with local business contributions and tax grants, as regulated per the local Township ordinances.
    Nope, all of the parking garages in those towns are commercial. Privately built, owned and operated.

    ETA: And it still does not change the fact that it is your choice that is casuing you to impacted by the employers policy while you are off the clock. As you have said the reason you can not carry to and from work is because you choose to ride a bicycle, whichyou choose to not equip with a lock box. You admit that you have not even offered to split the cost with your employer. You say you have not spoken to your employer about it so you don't even know if they would accomodate you! But instead you want laws passed to require employers to allow on the job carry.

    If you had taken one tenth the time you have spent writing about this and actually talked with your employer they might have said yes and allowed you to carry. You would get what you want and would not have to intrude on the lives of others.
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  7. #81
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    The employer's policy reaches beyond their private property and scope of employment. Therefore the employer must either remove the policy or provide gun lockers, just as employers are being forced to look the other way while guns are lawfully stored in a car.

    So let me get this straight.

    Since you cannot manage your time correctly, show the commitment to the military and do PT on your own time or you are just really cheap and don't want to buy gas you ride your bike to work for exercise in lieu of off work PT.
    Since you ride your bike to work you have no place to lock up your gun so you don't carry it. So now it is your employer's responsibility to provide you with a place to lock up your gun because you make the choice to ride a bike and have no place to store it and of course since they have this policy in effect any criminal act that would occur because you are riding your bike unarmed to and from work would be their responsibility to right?

    Your statements in this post does not seem to go along with your statements and soapbox speech you gave on why you carry a gun 24/7/365 and would never be caught without one, the threat level is so high due to gangbangers after your family you knowingly and willingly carry a concealed weapon against your companies policy knowing you could get fired if caught, charged criminally and ruined finacially if you had to use it BUT you ride a 10 speed to work unarmed?

    Which is it? Are you in constant fear for you and your families life or is the threat not quite as big as you make it out to be if you are riding unarmed on a bicycle? If I have a group of individuals who are gunning for me and my family the last thing I am going to do is put myself in a position where they don't have to shoot me or beat me to death. All they have to do is drive by and whiz a 40 oz at my head or simply run over me. If this threat was real you would have a weapon and be in a vehicle not unarmed on a bike.

    Dude your posts are getting nuttier by the minute but all this is a mute point. Law says they can so you are ass out. No further statements or replies needed. They win you lose. Don't like it file a lawsuit but good luck finding an attorney to take the case or a judge that will even hear it.

    Oh by the way just thought of another "Which is it question".

    You have stated over and over how you carry at work concealed all the time at work against company policy and no one knows, so why would you not simply carry the gun while riding and wear it to work like you say you do now? So if you are carrying it in secret anyway why would you need a lockbox in the first place? Like I said guy your stories are not making sense so which is it?
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  8. #82
    Ex Member Array ArmyMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    How exactly does one take the bait by ignoring it??????Do you fish often? You got to be kidding me. And again, an employer only needs to provide you what is required by law and for your job.
    You are supporting private property owners to have authority over people who are not on their private property or any extension thereof. This is why your original chanting of "my property, my rules" didn't sway me. I know that it's not actually about property rights with you folks. That's the surrogate argument you use to rationalize your predisposition after-the-fact, it's not the truth.

    The truth is, you don't trust people. You're afraid the average typical law-abiding citizen is going to try to apply force on you, despite all the evidence to the contrary. This makes your mistrust, your fear, irrational. Not raging loonacy, no, just irrational.

    A healthy level of distrust of any stranger is warranted, because you can't yet determine if they are friend or foe. However, once that person presents valid credentials proving their 'good guy' status, such as a valid CCW or military ID, that healthy level of initial distrust should pass. As you noted earlier in this thread, an EMT should have the ability to carry into your home, even against your will if need be. Because you accept the EMT's "good guy" social status, you trust him and therefore have little or no objection.

    If your rule of "my property, my rules" were true, then you would still deny, by force, an armed EMT's entrance.

    To reiterate, the reason why you don't care about an employer's policy over reaching beyond the scope of the job or private property rights, is because you have an unhealthy level of distrust for people in general.

    Trust is the problem, not guns, not rights or who's what is infringing on anyone's where. It all comes down to trust and respect.

  9. #83
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
    You are supporting private property owners to have authority over people who are not on their private property or any extension thereof. This is why your original chanting of "my property, my rules" didn't sway me. I know that it's not actually about property rights with you folks. That's the surrogate argument you use, it's not the truth.

    The truth is, you don't trust people.

    A healthy level of distrust of any stranger is warranted, because you can't yet determine if they are friend or foe. However, once that person presents valid credentials proving their 'good guy' status, such as a valid CCW or military ID, that healthy level of initial distrust should pass. As you noted earlier in this thread, an EMT should have the ability to carry into your home, even against your will if need be. "Bad guy" professions such as burglary face the same dangers, but because you accept the EMT's "good guy" social status, you trust him and therefore have little or no objection.

    If your rule of "my property, my rules" were true, then you would still deny, by force, an armed EMT's entrance.

    To reiterate, the reason why you don't care about an employer's policy over reaching beyond the scope of the job or private property rights, is because you have an unhealthy level of distrust for people in general.

    Trust is the problem, not guns, not rights or who's what is infringing on anyone's where. It all comes down to trust and respect.
    Somebody needs a reading comprehension course. I think EMT's should be allowed to carry and with that would come formal training and be a requirement for the job. Like a LEO to a certain degree. Therefore they are not Joe snuffy carpenter or plumber walking into my house. They would be carrying because it is IMO an occupational hazard.

    As far as a CCW liscense or military ID I laugh at that. Any idiot can join the military and any moron can get a CCW assuming they are not a felon or wife beater. What on earth does that prove. They know which end goes bang? Big whoopdie doo. As far as the military...sorry folks and most will admit it. Just by being in the military does not make you a weapons expert. Depending what branch and MOS you might touch a gun 2 times a year and even then they don't trust you with the ammo and the gun at the same time until you are ready to fire. So please, get real.

    You sir do not need a gun for your job. In fact, why do you need to carry in my house if I hired you? Becasue you don't trust me? Where is the danger when a plumber is working in my home? And if I was the danger you were were concerned about I would just wait till you took out your circular saw and had your back turned and then shoot you.

    EDIT: When I say an EMT should carry, I do not mean as a CC'er. I meant as part of the job.

  10. #84
    Ex Member Array ArmyMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post

    So let me get this straight.

    Since you cannot manage your time correctly....
    Single father of 2 sons with special needs, my personal time is quite limited. I also have my own homework assignments to do so I can advance my civilian and military careers with a better education. I've tried many things, and putting my sons on the bus then riding my bike to and from the shop as opposed to driving every day is the best way to get my PT in.

    Kindly bother to learn something about a specific individual before making it personal.

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Since you ride your bike to work you have no place to lock up your gun so you don't carry it. So now it is your employer's responsibility to provide you with a place to lock up your gun because you make the choice to ride a bike and have no place to store it and of course since they have this policy in effect any criminal act that would occur because you are riding your bike unarmed to and from work would be their responsibility to right?
    Let's try some punctuation and edit out the redundant statements in that one:
    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Since you ride your bike to work you have no place to lock up your gun, so you don't carry it. So now it is your employer's responsibility to provide you with a place to lock up your gun.
    Correct. My car could just as easily be in the shop for a few days. Or public transit could be far more economical then owning/using my own car. Or I could be disabled and getting rides from any number of programs for disabled veterans. Or maybe my job is only a few blocks away from my house so I walk, because driving a short distance doesn't make any sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Since they have this policy in effect, any criminal act that would occur because you are riding your bike unarmed to and from work would be their responsibility to right?
    Yes. If I'm under an employer's authority, then the employer is liable.

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Your statements in this post does not seem to go along with your statements and soapbox speech you gave on why you carry a gun 24/7/365 and would never be caught without one, the threat level is so high due to gangbangers after your family you knowingly and willingly carry a concealed weapon against your companies policy knowing you could get fired if caught, charged criminally and ruined finacially if you had to use it BUT you ride a 10 speed to work unarmed?
    What makes you think carrying against an employer's policy is illegal in my state? If it were illegal I wouldn't be talking about it here as-per DC forum rules.

    Here in SD, a private property owner's gun-control policies do not carry the force of law. The most trouble I could get in is to be fired. No criminal charge.

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Which is it? Are you in constant fear for you and your families life or is the threat not quite as big as you make it out to be if you are riding unarmed on a bicycle? If I have a group of individuals who are gunning for me and my family the last thing I am going to do is put myself in a position where they don't have to shoot me or beat me to death. All they have to do is drive by and whiz a 40 oz at my head or simply run over me. If this threat was real you would have a weapon and be in a vehicle not unarmed on a bike.
    If that's how you choose to live, you are free to make that choice. Other people should be free to make a different choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Dude your posts are getting nuttier by the minute but all this is a mute point. Law says they can so you are ass out. No further statements or replies needed. They win you lose. Don't like it file a lawsuit but good luck finding an attorney to take the case or a judge that will even hear it.
    What lawsuit? If I were 'made' and my employer fired me, neither of us could sue the other. My carrying against his wishes isn't illegal, and he can rightfully fire me for braking a company policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Oh by the way just thought of another "Which is it question".

    You have stated over and over how you carry at work concealed all the time at work against company policy and no one knows, so why would you not simply carry the gun while riding and wear it to work like you say you do now?
    A conversation with a friend on DebatePolitics.com recently changed my mind. He was willing to answer my questions and avoided the bumper-sticker sloganeering. He was able to articulate the reasons behind his opinion and that alone gave me pause for thought. In addition to his willingness to talk, the merits of his argument made sense on their own. I don't completely agree with him, but I understand where he's coming from and how he views the issue. He made enough of an impression in about 6 posts for me to change my behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    So if you are carrying it in secret anyway why would you need a lockbox in the first place? Like I said guy your stories are not making sense so which is it?
    Of 4 construction employers I've ever had, only 1 had any kind of policy on weapons, and that was because I was hired specifically for a 9 month temporary job on an Air-Force base. Now there's still that social stigma most gun owners feel when the typical average joe notices a gun, and so I kept it private. On this forum many folks will say "don't ask, don't tell", and that exactly what I was doing. I wasn't explicitly denied, but neither did I have direct permission. All it would have taken was 1 bungee-hugging client to make a fuss and I'd have a problem.

    If I found myself facing the choice to either have a gun or a job in my field, last week I would have told you that I would carry anyway and fight for these laws so that I wouldn't be terminated if 'made'. Today, I may have to cut back the bike riding so that I can store my gun in my car. I admit I may carry while the owner isn't home, which is quite often, but quietly store it while they are home. I would look into welding a mini gun vault onto my bike, but that would stand out and make my bike more of a target.

    So, I'm more agreeable to the other side, but I'm still in a tight spot.

  11. #85
    Ex Member Array ArmyMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Somebody needs a reading comprehension course. I think EMT's should be allowed to carry and with that would come formal training and be a requirement for the job. Like a LEO to a certain degree. Therefore they are not Joe snuffy carpenter or plumber walking into my house. They would be carrying because it is IMO an occupational hazard.

    As far as a CCW liscense or military ID I laugh at that. Any idiot can join the military and any moron can get a CCW assuming they are not a felon or wife beater. What on earth does that prove. They know which end goes bang? Big whoopdie doo. As far as the military...sorry folks and most will admit it. Just by being in the military does not make you a weapons expert. Depending what branch and MOS you might touch a gun 2 times a year and even then they don't trust you with the ammo and the gun at the same time until you are ready to fire. So please, get real.

    You're carrying that mentality here, where instead of a team or squad you have a few of your close friend and your household, where they are legit but everyone else sucks. It's lame, give it up.

    You sir do not need a gun for your job. In fact, why do you need to carry in my house if I hired you? Becasue you don't trust me? Where is the danger when a plumber is working in my home? And if I was the danger you were were concerned about I would just wait till you took out your circular saw and had your back turned and then shoot you.

    EDIT: When I say an EMT should carry, I do not mean as a CC'er. I meant as part of the job.
    Thank you for proving everything I just said.

    I know how the Airborne views the rest of the world. If it's just you, everyone else sucks. If its your team, then your team is legit but the rest of the squad and the whole army sucks. If it's your squad, then your squad is legit but rest of your platoon and the whole army sucks. If it's your platoon, then your platoon is legit but the rest of your company and the whole army sucks. Etc, etc, ad-nausium.

    That's what you're doing here. Your close friends are legit but the rest of the world sucks.

    I just spent 8 months with a battalion of Airborne, you guys aren't anywhere near as elite, skilled or professional as you want people to think. Us lowly, lowly engineers never lost a weapon, never had an ND. Can't say the same for the super-hoah Airborn.

  12. #86
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    What on earth are you babbling about....good grief. Got a complex issue going on there? Never said one unit is better than another. Just a fact. A cook on a ship I would imagine does not touch a weapon as often as a SeAl. A supply sergeant in the army does not fire as much as someone in CAG. A rigger in the AF (actually riggers in the AF do not even have to be jump qualified which is another topic altogether LOL) does not touch a weapon as much as a PJ. I have worked with all services. It is a fact of life. It is not I am better than you. Get over the complex and back to the thread.

    Edit: FWIW if you are in certain units and you can not demonstrate your ability to handle a weapon safely you are no longer in that unit. Unlike in other units where you get a counseling.

  13. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    What on earth are you babbling about....good grief. Got a complex issue going on there? Never said one unit is better than another. Just a fact. A cook on a ship I would imagine does not touch a weapon as often as a SeAl. A supply sergeant in the army does not fire as much as someone in CAG. A rigger in the AF does not touch a weapon as much as a PJ. I have worked with all services. It is a fact of life. It is not I am better than you. Get over the complex and back to the thread.

    Edit: FWIW if you are in certain units and you can not demonstrate your ability to handle a weapon safely you are no longer in that unit. Unlike in other units where you get a counseling.
    Ok there big guy, you have a good night.

  14. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
    Yes. If I'm under an employer's authority, then the employer is liable.
    But you are not under the employers authority. You are acting according to your own free will. They are not dictating to you your mode of transportation that is keeping you from carrying. You freely chose that. They are not preventing you from bolting a nano vault to the frame of your bike. They are not preventing you from getting a lockable kevlar seat or frame or handle bar bag. You are. And again you have not even approached them to discuss the issue. There are multiple simple solutions to your problem that you choose to ignore and instead you try to make your problem everyone else's problem.
    suntzu likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    But you are not under the employers authority. You are acting according to your own free will. They are not dictating to you your mode of transportation that is keeping you from carrying. You freely chose that. They are not preventing you from bolting a nano vault to the frame of your bike. They are not preventing you from getting a lockable kevlar seat or frame or handle bar bag. You are. And again you have not even approached them to discuss the issue. There are multiple simple solutions to your problem that you choose to ignore and instead you try to make your problem everyone else's problem.
    Hey if you don't care about me then I don't care about your rules. It's to easy to become partizen on the topic, so let's explore the deeper concerns.

    Let's put some real details in here.

    This gun: The Smith & Wesson Model 642 Centennial Airweight Revolver

    In this holster: SmartCarry - Concealed Gun Holsters

    Doing carpentry work, let's say hanging cabinets (fairly typical winter job for me).

    How would my carrying while at work harm anyone or anything?

  16. #90
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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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