Wentworth-Douglass Hospital, Dover NH.

This is a discussion on Wentworth-Douglass Hospital, Dover NH. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Wentworth-Douglass Hospital has posted a gun busting sign on all doors. In NH they have the weight of law. I spoke to one of the ...

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Thread: Wentworth-Douglass Hospital, Dover NH.

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    Member Array spike's Avatar
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    Wentworth-Douglass Hospital, Dover NH.

    Wentworth-Douglass Hospital has posted a gun busting sign on all doors. In NH they have the weight of law. I spoke to one of the guys in plant ops, the department that would put up signs on the property and he told me that its been up for about 3 weeks.

    my thought is does this sign now create a special relationship? They have always prohibited employee's from carrying, now they prohibit the public as well. just want to let all the people who use the hospital of the change.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spike View Post
    Wentworth-Douglass Hospital has posted a gun busting sign on all doors. In NH they have the weight of law. I spoke to one of the guys in plant ops, the department that would put up signs on the property and he told me that its been up for about 3 weeks.

    my thought is does this sign now create a special relationship? They have always prohibited employee's from carrying, now they prohibit the public as well. just want to let all the people who use the hospital of the change.
    Special relationship as in? If you mean does it make them liable for injuries due to not being able to defend yourself, it is going to depend on state law, but I'm guessing no it doesn't.
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    Member Array dmicucci's Avatar
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    Actually, signs in NH do not carry the weight of law. Trespass law says you are trespassing if it has been "personally communicated" to you that you are not allowed to be there. A sign is not a personal communication. The only place prohibiting carry by state law is the secure area of a courthouse. And of course all places prohibited by federal law. So the best they can do is ask you to leave. Then however you must, because that is a personal communication.
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    Member Array spike's Avatar
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    Dmicucci, can you point me in the right direction, so I can find the correct verbage that the no gun signs hold no weight of law. That would be great thanks. spike
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    Section 635:2 Criminal Trespass.
    This is a link to the state statute on criminal trespass. There are no laws regarding where carry is allowed or prohibited. The only reference to it is in the section regarding courthouse (can be found by browsing around the statutes, I don't feel like searching on my phone LOL)

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmicucci View Post
    Section 635:2 Criminal Trespass.
    This is a link to the state statute on criminal trespass. There are no laws regarding where carry is allowed or prohibited. The only reference to it is in the section regarding courthouse (can be found by browsing around the statutes, I don't feel like searching on my phone LOL)
    I am going by http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newhampshire.pdf Which says YES that signs have the force of law.

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    Member Array dmicucci's Avatar
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    At the risk of sounding like a know-it-all, I dare say that would be wrong, as confirmed by a friend of the family, who happens to be a small town NH chief of police. I know cops certainly aren't lawyers, but him I trust.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmicucci View Post
    At the risk of sounding like a know-it-all, I dare say that would be wrong, as confirmed by a friend of the family, who happens to be a small town NH chief of police. I know cops certainly aren't lawyers, but him I trust.
    I would not want to be a test case, nor would I trust the word of any small town NH LEO. I just moved from there a month ago and some have no clue on what the gun laws are.

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    Town of Hanover, NH - Firearm Information

    One more example, found with a 30-second google search. Scroll down the page to the "Q&A" section, under the question "What about private businesses/property?" Also take note of the question two down from this one regarding city buildings/parks.

    Another one. This is answered right at the top of the page:
    http://www.barrington.nh.gov/Pages/B...olice/firearms
    Last edited by dmicucci; August 20th, 2012 at 09:25 PM. Reason: Added more info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmicucci View Post
    Town of Hanover, NH - Firearm Information

    One more example, found with a 30-second google search. Scroll down the page to the "Q&A" section, under the question "What about private businesses/property?" Also take note of the question two down from this one regarding city buildings/parks.

    Another one. This is answered right at the top of the page:
    Barrington, NH - Firearms Information
    That does not count as two references LOL. They are using the same FAQ. And if you noticed in the Hanover one they reference :Online National Clearing House for State by State Firearm and Concealed Carry Laws. Handgunlaw.us which says that they do have the force of law. Look, I am not a lawyer, LEO's I have talked to in NH have said they have the force of law.

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    TITLE LXII
    CRIMINAL CODE
    CHAPTER 635
    UNAUTHORIZED ENTRIES
    Section 635:2
    635:2 Criminal Trespass. –
    I. A person is guilty of criminal trespass if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place.
    II. Criminal trespass is a misdemeanor for the first offense and a class B felony for any subsequent offense if the person knowingly or recklessly causes damage in excess of $1,500 to the value of the property of another.
    III. Criminal trespass is a misdemeanor if:
    (a) The trespass takes place in an occupied structure as defined in RSA 635:1, III; or
    (b) The person knowingly enters or remains:
    (1) In any secured premises;
    (2) In any place in defiance of an order to leave or not to enter which was personally communicated to him by the owner or other authorized person; or
    (3) In any place in defiance of any court order restraining him from entering such place so long as he has been properly notified of such order.
    IV. All other criminal trespass is a violation.
    V. In this section, "secured premises'' means any place which is posted in a manner prescribed by law or in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, or which is fenced or otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders.
    VI. In this section, "property,'' "property of another,'' and "value'' shall be as defined in RSA 637:2, I, IV, and V, respectively.

    Source. 1971, 518:1. 1979, 377:7. 2005, 125:1, eff. Jan. 1, 2006. 2010, 239:2, eff. July 1, 2010.

    So I guess what we are debating is the definition of "personally communicated". I take "owner or other authorized person" to exclude a sign. Furthermore, NH laws are totally silent from even mentioning signage at all, seeing as the only place prohibited by state law is the secure area of a courthouse. If there is no specific legal requirement for a sign, it can therefore hold no legal weight.

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    I wouldn't trust handgunlaws.us completely. For the longest time they said signs carry the weight of law in Idaho when they do not. I was just looking on the NH gov website and the only thing that was mentioned about posting was for trespassing and hunting. Then it said the letters had to be 2 inches high and have the owners name and address and some other information on the sign. I couldn't find anything that mentioned no guns signs in their statues. The only thing mentioned was criminal trespass if you didn't leave when asked to by a person. Personally I would carry on.

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    While Handgunlaw.us is a starting point for information concerning various gun laws by state there information is not always up to date and/or totally accurate. To find out the factual information necessary check you state statues and/or contact your state Department of Justice for answers.
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    Exactly the point I was trying to make....There is nothing, at all, about no weapons signs in NH law. In fact, there is very little in NH law about weapons at all. Not even schools are off limits by state law (although the federal GFSZA is a whole other ball game, which we could probably debate whether NH Pistol Licenses provide an exception to until we're blue in the face), however I can tell you that no person in NH has ever been prosecuted on charges related to this law.

    I'm not sure why so many take handgunlaw.us to be the be-all end-all of gun laws. It is a website, just like the ones I quoted. So if one can be wrong, why can't the other? The final say in all laws are the state statutes, of which there are none on no weapons signs. And if there are no laws against it, it by definition, can't be against the law. We in NH live in the "Live Free of Die" state and we take this very seriously, and I am very proud of this fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmicucci View Post
    TITLE LXII
    CRIMINAL CODE
    CHAPTER 635
    UNAUTHORIZED ENTRIES
    Section 635:2
    635:2 Criminal Trespass.
    I. A person is guilty of criminal trespass if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place.
    II. Criminal trespass is a misdemeanor for the first offense and a class B felony for any subsequent offense if the person knowingly or recklessly causes damage in excess of $1,500 to the value of the property of another.
    III. Criminal trespass is a misdemeanor if:
    (a) The trespass takes place in an occupied structure as defined in RSA 635:1, III; or
    (b) The person knowingly enters or remains:
    (1) In any secured premises;
    (2) In any place in defiance of an order to leave or not to enter which was personally communicated to him by the owner or other authorized person; or
    (3) In any place in defiance of any court order restraining him from entering such place so long as he has been properly notified of such order.
    IV. All other criminal trespass is a violation.
    V. In this section, "secured premises'' means any place which is posted in a manner prescribed by law or in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, or which is fenced or otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders.

    VI. In this section, "property,'' "property of another,'' and "value'' shall be as defined in RSA 637:2, I, IV, and V, respectively.

    Source. 1971, 518:1. 1979, 377:7. 2005, 125:1, eff. Jan. 1, 2006. 2010, 239:2, eff. July 1, 2010.

    So I guess what we are debating is the definition of "personally communicated". I take "owner or other authorized person" to exclude a sign. Furthermore, NH laws are totally silent from even mentioning signage at all, seeing as the only place prohibited by state law is the secure area of a courthouse. If there is no specific legal requirement for a sign, it can therefore hold no legal weight.
    Posted in a manner.... to me that means a sign. This seems in indicate mere presence although a posting specific to firearms will likely subject violators to a misdemeanor charge as read.
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