Worried about my Dad
This is a discussion on Worried about my Dad within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Some background: My dad is 49 years old, retired from the Navy after 20 years as a Master Chief. Most of those years he was ...
September 28th, 2006 11:22 AM
Worried about my Dad
Some background: My dad is 49 years old, retired from the Navy after 20 years as a Master Chief. Most of those years he was an MP and qualified several times as a sharpshooter with the 1911. Since getting out of the Navy, he has a been a Sheriff's Deputy in northern Arkansas for nearly 15 years. He's the guy who got me into guns, and taught me firearm safety, and pretty much is my all around Hero. Now for my problem.
We recently went to the range and I noticed something for the first time. My dad's EDC, on duty and off, is his trusty ol' 1911. And He Carries It In Condition 3!!. When I asked my dad about this, he said that a friend of his years ago, tossed his holstered 1911 on the bed while getting undressed and it ND and killed his sleeping son in the next room. He says that he only carries with one in the pipe if he knows he may need it before it's reholstered.
Now, my dad is CID for his little Sheriff's office and has had a hand in putting many a BG away for awhile. And the county he works in is rural enough that EVERYONE knows who he is. I'm terrified that my dad is going to be accosted by an armed, recently released BG and be in Condition 3, because my dad is the kind to give nearly everyone the benefit of the doubt even if something has raised him to awareness level orange. Does anyone have any advice for talking to my dad about changing his carry habits? He is a stubborn, stubborn individual, but he's never been beyond redemption if you can convince him he's wrong. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history, with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila.
September 28th, 2006 11:53 AM
You can try to talk him out of it, but you will fail.
Your dad's an adult and has reasons, however unfounded they may be, for doing things the way he does them.
Is it unsafe? Maybe. But it's his preference, and I would hazard a guess that's the way he had to carry in the military.
In other words, he's used to it. He's middle aged (I'm guessing). Would you really want to take months to teach him a whole new manual of arms with a pistol he's carried and practiced with for years?
Honestly, I think he's safer in condition three, because he knows how to use that condition.
Think about it:
1) BG comes at him now. He draws and racks the slide in one fluid motion, and fires. BG goes down.
2) Same scenario, only he has gone cocked'n'locked. He draws, tries to rack the slide, but the slide goes noplace. He pauses, trying to figure out what's going on.
If you can even convince him that it's safe and he agrees to it, I would ask him to carry a revolver, Beretta, or Glock in the interim while retraining with the 1911.
September 28th, 2006 12:04 PM
would he consider a different 1911? Maybe one with a drop safety?
I think the answer is simpler though- give him a challenge. Ask him if he would be willing to carry his 1911 around cocked and UNlocked loaded with a snapcap or completely empty for a week or even a month. Have him carry it around the house, toss it on the bed or whatever. He will discover that it will not go off unless the trigger is pulled and possibly change his mind.
As far as manual of arms I think that can be overcome fairly easy with practice. I don't know about the Navy but in the USMC we carry our pistols cond 1 (that's the M9 too of course so I don't know if the 1911 was different)
September 28th, 2006 12:09 PM
When you carry a 1911 in condition 3, you have to rack the slide between drawing the gun and firing, which probably takes about 1.0 seconds if you have both hands free. So in an emergency when you need the gun right now, it would slow you down a bit and possibly give your attacker extra time to shoot/stab/hit you. That may or may not be important, and it would depend upon the exact circumstances of the encounter. Most of us with 1911s don't want to give up that second and carry cocked and locked, of course. It also frees up the weak side hand if you should need it to fend off an attack.
I can understand your dad's fear of a chambered 1911 based on the story of his friend, but I am puzzled how dropping a holstered 1911 on a bed would make it discharge. The grip safety alone should have prevented that, not to mention the thumb safety. It could be there was something faulty about that particular gun.
I would also note that a LEO, when anticipating the use of his gun, will often draw it and make it ready to fire, well before he knows if he will need it. LEOs are not guilty of "brandishing" in this case, whereas civilians can't legally get away with this. So your dad would have a time edge here, when he could rack the slide in advance.
I guess you will just have to reason with your dad about this, hoping your logic will convince him. Or maybe you could get him to switch to a gun he would feel safer about carrying with one in the pipe, like a DA/SA gun or a revolver.
September 28th, 2006 12:16 PM
VIP Member (Retired Staff)
''Knowing it may be needed'' - this as we know is the unanswerable question at times - and one reason why this is giving dwpa such concern.
He says that he only carries with one in the pipe if he knows he may need it before it's reholstered.
I very much doubt he will change his mind but, if this is always gonna be his method then I sure would be more at ease if he was putting in some significant practice time. He must do what he is comfortable with but also be skilled at it too.
Leaving aside how the heck it ND'd - that was a blatent safety violation - rule #2 for most part. As we all mostly know - con #1 with all safety rules followed is OK.
a friend of his years ago, tossed his holstered 1911 on the bed
Chris - P95
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September 28th, 2006 12:43 PM
Not likely to change. He has a preconcieved notion drilled into his head through years of training and service as well as awareness of one bad accident that was the fault of bad gun handling. He also probably deep down inside doubts he will ever really need to use the gun.
Perhaps you can get him to go for training at something like LFI, Gunsite or Thunder Ranch but you, all on your own, are not going to convince hims as a "Proffesional." Accept it and move on or buy him a 45ACP Wheelgun along with Moon Clips.
September 28th, 2006 12:52 PM
I too would assume that this is also how he has trained and practiced. For him to change now could be a disadvantage and possibly less safe for him unless he spent a lot of time re-learning the new condition through additional training and practice. That's a big change to ask of him.
ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!
"A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
September 28th, 2006 12:56 PM
being close in age to your dad, I can tell you I probably would not change....
change the scenario a little too, BG grabs dad's 1911 from his holster and tries to sqeeze off a round at him and gets nothing... dad has time to get it back or find cover....
(I'm 45 and my dad is a LEO as well.... he carries a glock and sometimes a wheelgun.....btw he is 67! )
September 28th, 2006 01:50 PM
My dad is just like your dad, and you probably can't change his mind. I couldn't change my dad's. He would carry his little Colt Gov't .380 Condition 3 because he believed it was unsafe to carry cocked and locked, and that was that. He didn't like it when I carried a K40, and he doesn't like it when he sees my Colt Mustang strapped to my ankle cocked n' cocked.
So a few years ago my brother and I went to Plan B and bought him a Colt Detective Special. And he carries it with a full cylinder.
"Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa
September 28th, 2006 02:10 PM
Did you ask him if the police did a through investigation of HOW THE HELL that 1911 (holstered) went off like that. Just sitting here, having shot them for years, I can't imagine how that could happen with out a major (and unusual) flaw in the gun.
Originally Posted by dwpa
You might also suggest a change of weapon, since he doesn't seem to trust the 1911.
EOD - Initial success or total failure
September 28th, 2006 02:16 PM
Just WONDERING how tossing a holstered Cocked & Locked 1911 onto a bed....
> #1 - Would Knock The Thumb Safety To The Off Position ???
> #2 - Depress The Grip Safety ???
> #3 - Simultaneously Pull The Trigger & Keep It Pulled
> #4 - And lastly over-ride the Safety Cock Hammer Notch.
Me thinks the person that suffered that Negligent Discharge was NOT being completely 100% honest as to HOW that accident happened.
A ND just cannot happen that way w/ a 1911 folks. It's impossible.
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
September 28th, 2006 02:53 PM
Maybe he should get a wheel gun don`t get me wronge I love and trust my 1911 and C&L is the way I carry.
As another said have him carry around the house empty or with snap caps till he is comfortable with it.
September 28th, 2006 04:03 PM
NG by tossing gun on bed. The older 1911 can discharge if dropped on end of barrel. The only thing that keeps the firing pin from hitting the Primer is the firing pin spring. If the spring is weak or the gun is tossed hard enough the firing pin can slam against the primer and firing the cartridge. There have been various firing pin blocks created and are used in various new 1911s. If one has an older 1911 and it does not have a firing pin safty it is recomended that you replace the firing pin with a Titanium one which has less mass and is less likley to overcome the resistance of the spring.
September 28th, 2006 09:00 PM
I'm stubborn too.
We all know what opinions are worth, but here I go!
Some people, including myself don't like cocked & Locked. Now if in a combat zone or in a SHTF situation, you can bet I'd be carying my 1911 C&L, but for day to day, no. I realize that a 1911 design is safe in this manner theoretically, but still it freaks me out.
That said, I carry a revolver or DA auto w. a decocker because I think it's a safer design without having to worry about chambering before I fire. I doubt your Dad will change for the same reason that I won't carry C&L, (stubborn) but if it was my dad I'd sure try to point out the advantages of carrying a gun like I carry. Added percieved safey and faster response time.
When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.
September 28th, 2006 09:11 PM
No offense, but I just don't follow that line of thinking. In my mind a C&L 1911 is safer because you have a manual safety, grip safety and in some cases a drop safety. So you have to disengage the safety and you have to grip it, then pull the trigger. A DAO all you have to do is pull the trigger, and you don't even have to grip it to do it. Basically a C&L 1911 just looks scary.
I understand what you're saying about a combat zone, but out and about in civilian life you never know when you might need your weapon, and when you DO need it, you will need it no less than if you were in actual combat. You never know when you'll find yourself in a SHTF situation!
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