How Do Authorities Solve This: Both Parties Claim Self-Defense? : - Page 4

How Do Authorities Solve This: Both Parties Claim Self-Defense? :

This is a discussion on How Do Authorities Solve This: Both Parties Claim Self-Defense? : within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 How does one avoid getting charged? Zimmerman is the best example I can think of regarding the virtues of keeping one's ...

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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    How does one avoid getting charged? Zimmerman is the best example I can think of regarding the virtues of keeping one's mouth shut, seeking immediate medical attention, and getting a lawyer before making any statements to the police who, in this case felt he should not have been charged. Talking to the police beyond the immediate facts of the situation after a lethal force confrontation is simply a bad idea.
    776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
    (1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
    (2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
    (3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

    Without probable cause, Zimmerman could not be arrested on the spot. Perhaps there was no "immediate" probable cause. And as indicated in (3), if his case is ruled justifiable, any legal expenses against "civil" suits will cost the plaintiffs.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
    (1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
    (2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
    (3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

    Without probable cause, Zimmerman could not be arrested on the spot. Perhaps there was no "immediate" probable cause. And as indicated in (3), if his case is ruled justifiable, any legal expenses against "civil" suits will cost the plaintiffs.
    The only probable cause I have heard about in the Zimmerman case up until now were the conflicting statements he allegedly made to the police and the prosecutor who ultimately bought charges against him, all without the benefit of or in conflict with his own legal counsel.
    The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    The only probable cause I have heard about in the Zimmerman case up until now were the conflicting statements he allegedly made to the police and the prosecutor who ultimately bought charges against him, all without the benefit of or in conflict with his own legal counsel.
    Forget whatever opinion one may have in the Zimmerman case. The case - beyond those views - is a good example why SD cases are difficult: there are often no witnesses due to the furtive nature of the crimes that create SD needs - and often the other party is dead. This is not true in many other major events that may show criminal guilt to the survivor as a by-product of the investigation, whether or not he actually is.

    Dicey business and yet another reason to make sure lethal SD is THE last house on the street.

  4. #49
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    Furtive. Nice.
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.
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    Well..... if I'm a good shot.... I'ld be the only one telling the story.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    Well..... if I'm a good shot.... I'ld be the only one telling the story.
    Again, I would refer to the Zimmerman case.
    The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
    Ayn Rand

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    Forget whatever opinion one may have in the Zimmerman case. The case - beyond those views - is a good example why SD cases are difficult: there are often no witnesses due to the furtive nature of the crimes that create SD needs - and often the other party is dead. This is not true in many other major events that may show criminal guilt to the survivor as a by-product of the investigation, whether or not he actually is.

    Dicey business and yet another reason to make sure lethal SD is THE last house on the street.
    Facts are that which upon I base my opinions. The case is a good example of why one should keep one's mouth shut prior to talking to an attorney. There is no getting beyond that for the purpose of this discussion.
    The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
    Ayn Rand

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    Well, back to the original question: If both the bad guy and you are claiming self defense, it might be a tough situation for the detectives to figure out. However, i think in a scenario like that, your most important witnesses are the spent shellcasings...

    I wonder how a bad guy would explain that he only fired _after_ you shot at him first - when evidence shows (lets say) 5 .22lr casings on the ground, starting in the opposite direction of you and the bad guy - meaning "behind" the bad guy from your location - about 20 yards away. If you don't get the picture: If he shoots in self defense - then why did he follow you?

    Besides that, unless this happens in a very rural area, you should have witnesses that heard you scream, that maybe even saw the whole thing going on. If you had a reason to be there (lets say for some late night shopping), your family members should be able to testify why you went there. Also, chances are that some store clerks remember you and back up your story. However, the bad guys story probably wouldn't fit together as well as yours. And if the "what happened before" is inconclusive, i don't really think they will buy the "but officer, he shot at me first after i was just asking him for the time" storyline...

    Long story short: In my opinion, it will never actually come down to such a "i said, he said" situation, because there is always more to a story than just 2 people claiming what happened...
    detective likes this.
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  9. #54
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    I personally worry about it, and it's one reason I may not conceal carry even when I get a comfortable gun to do it with.

    I am required to escape if it's safe to do so, so trying to think in a deadly situation wouldn't be easy.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveJohnson View Post
    I personally worry about it, and it's one reason I may not conceal carry even when I get a comfortable gun to do it with.

    I am required to escape if it's safe to do so, so trying to think in a deadly situation wouldn't be easy.
    To each his own, but as the old saying goes.

    I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

  11. #56
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    Several people have turned to past criminal records to put themselves out of risk. Bad guys have to get caught doing something before they have a record. It is quite possible that the guy that just shot you has never been in trouble before. The gun could have been a gift from his grandfather making that legal as well. Who knows, he may even have a carry permit. Maybe the dude was a law abiding citizen until he got involved in drugs or something. Not necessarily probable, but possible.

    I have to say it, even though it goes against the gun forum acquired knowledge base. I strongly urge you not to seek medical help unless you actually need medical help. If you're saying you need to see a doctor and the police don't see any indication that you're in distress you've given them a reason to doubt what you say. I personally don't want them doubting what comes out of my mouth when I just told them that I shot someone to defend my life. YMMV, but that's my thoughts on what is, in my opinion, a bad piece of common knowledge on the forums.
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    I have to say it, even though it goes against the gun forum acquired knowledge base. I strongly urge you not to seek medical help unless you actually need medical help. If you're saying you need to see a doctor and the police don't see any indication that you're in distress you've given them a reason to doubt what you say. I personally don't want them doubting what comes out of my mouth when I just told them that I shot someone to defend my life. YMMV, but that's my thoughts on what is, in my opinion, a bad piece of common knowledge on the forums.
    Adrenaline dump, rapid heart rate, elevated blood pressure, tunnel vision, and acute anxiety are just some of the likely results for a participant in a lethal force encounter, and can be life-threatening. One most likely needs medical attention, whether realizing it or not.
    The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    Several people have turned to past criminal records to put themselves out of risk. Bad guys have to get caught doing something before they have a record. It is quite possible that the guy that just shot you has never been in trouble before. The gun could have been a gift from his grandfather making that legal as well. Who knows, he may even have a carry permit. Maybe the dude was a law abiding citizen until he got involved in drugs or something. Not necessarily probable, but possible.

    I have to say it, even though it goes against the gun forum acquired knowledge base. I strongly urge you not to seek medical help unless you actually need medical help. If you're saying you need to see a doctor and the police don't see any indication that you're in distress you've given them a reason to doubt what you say. I personally don't want them doubting what comes out of my mouth when I just told them that I shot someone to defend my life. YMMV, but that's my thoughts on what is, in my opinion, a bad piece of common knowledge on the forums.
    I think your point is valid if you really experience no distress, but I believe most would be in acute distress, and want at least a medical check. I have serious conditions that could go bad in this kind of situation - I know it would be advisable for me to be checked out. Besides adrenaline can mask a lot, including being wounded. Police aren't physicians, the most they could say is you LOOK alright.

    Someone I know was shot twice in the guts by a .22 and had no inkling of being wounded until he felt a liquid on his belly area a few minutes after. When he looked down, there was blood all over the place. He ended up just barely surviving. Without noticing the liquid, which you could miss from adrenaline, he might well not have survived, just passed out before he called 911 and bled out. As it was he called, and a few moments later, was unconscious. That's how he was found.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Adrenaline dump, rapid heart rate, elevated blood pressure, tunnel vision, and acute anxiety are just some of the likely results for a participant in a lethal force encounter, and can be life-threatening. One most likely needs medical attention, whether realizing it or not.
    Come on now. You may be able to claim you need medical attention due to the others (even though I disagree) but tunnel vision and adrenaline dump aren't going to kill you.

    If you want to get medical help, then do so. No doubt that due to stress your blood pressure and heart rate are going to be up. But don't think there aren't consequences. If I'm the responding officer and you want to go to the hospital I'll get you an ambulance and make sure you get there. Once you leave I will start wondering what you're trying to hide and why you lied to me if you don't appear to be in distress. Human nature is what it is, and that's where my nature would lead me.
    "The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    Come on now. You may be able to claim you need medical attention due to the others (even though I disagree) but tunnel vision and adrenaline dump aren't going to kill you.

    If you want to get medical help, then do so. No doubt that due to stress your blood pressure and heart rate are going to be up. But don't think there aren't consequences. If I'm the responding officer and you want to go to the hospital I'll get you an ambulance and make sure you get there. Once you leave I will start wondering what you're trying to hide and why you lied to me if you don't appear to be in distress. Human nature is what it is, and that's where my nature would lead me.
    Adrenaline dumps can induce heart attacks and strokes, but since you are a doctor, you should already know that.
    The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
    Ayn Rand

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