How Do Authorities Solve This: Both Parties Claim Self-Defense? :

This is a discussion on How Do Authorities Solve This: Both Parties Claim Self-Defense? : within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Say for whatever reason you're walking somewhere after dark, could be just heading to your car, whatever - you're asked by two men walking on ...

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    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
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    How Do Authorities Solve This: Both Parties Claim Self-Defense? :

    Say for whatever reason you're walking somewhere after dark, could be just heading to your car, whatever - you're asked by two men walking on the other side of the street if you have any money. You say no and they cross over ahead of you towards a populated area 5 min away in the direction you were going. You attempt to quickly walk back the way you came,not as much street-life here but it's the only place to go, and you make plans to run to a house or scream help if they follow you this way. They do, you start to run, scream help, they run after you, , and out of breath you slow and face them and see one pull a gun out and start firing, it "pops" and you feel no hit, assume it's 22 or other low caliber and do the one thing available: pull your own gun and fire. You hit the guy, he's wounded but not critically but throws his gun away and lays prone. The Police arrive, and shortly after you begin to feel faint, ask for an ambulance, and then ask the cops to check for wounds around your stomach, where bad pain is starting. Sure enough, you've been hit, small hole but bleeding internally.

    Whenever the time comes to make a statement, yours is that the assailant fired first and then you shot him. But he makes the same statement: you pulled your gun out, you fired and hit him, to keep from getting shot again he had to pull out his .22 and start shooting.

    Now, how would forensics be able to tell who shot first. And wouldn't the Police be left with a "He said/She Said" situation?

    I imagine this may happen on occasion if the BG is not fatally wounded. Best defense is an offense - "HE shot first", (meaning You) I was trying to save my life and tried to shoot to keep from getting killed."

    How could anyone know what really happened in this kind of "double SD Claim"? Keep in mind too, the only witness may be the partner of the guy who was chasing you. It would be in his interest too to substantiate that you fired first. Beats a charge of robbery and participating in an attempted murder - you just claim you were attacked first and ACTED in SD.
    Last edited by detective; September 30th, 2012 at 03:36 AM.

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    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
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    Well, YOU'RE the detective....

    But I'm guessing that's where prior records come into play. The BG in your weird scenario probably wouldn't have the same sqeaky-clean record that I do. Plus, since my story about why I was on this street would be true it would pan out where his may not.
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    He who calls 911 first usualy wins...
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    I think it's an exelent question. As I've said before that proximity plays a big part in a shooting investigation. You are walking from a location to another with legitimate purpose. Going from a store lets say to your parked car. You may have the purchase, or a reciept from the store... In the time span mentioned someone from the store will remember you. Your car is still parked where you left it... the location of the shooting within the obvious route from store to car. Proximity would tend to prove your story to be true and correct. Your assailant probably wont have as perfect a provable reason for being at that place and time. And if he does... The entire investigation wont hinge on proximity. Any competent detective will conduct a canvass. There will be people who will have heard your shouts, and looked out a window. There will be witness' between the store and the crime scene. Your background, pedigre, and statement will be compared to the background, pedigre, and statement of the assailant. There will be forensic evidence leading to what actually happened. For example... as you say the peop fired several shots, and you fired one... that would tend to support your story. There will be ballistic evidence where the missed shots of the perp hit. their proximity would again support your version.

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    Any time your in a shooting situation, it is going to be a no win situation. In this situation you better hope the LEO's doing the investigating is thorough. Things such as story credibility, any criminal record, any history of similar incidents will be looked at. Interviews with you, and with him as well as witnesses, looking for inconsistencies in accounts. The fact that you have your weapon on you, and he's thrown his away, will hopefully cast doubt on his story. After all, why would someone who is in a gun fight toss their gun? Also how good your lawyer is, will definitely come into play.
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    I stick to my story.
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    I think the he who calls 911 first is a myth. Criminal record is one thing that will help you. There will be forensic evidence like shell casings and blood spatter that can help them idetify the course of the fight. There are interview and interrogation techniques that will help them get to the truth. Depending on your jurisdiction there may be technologies like shot-spotter that can identify the location of shots fired, down to caliber and approx barrel length. Even if there are no eye witness, others may have heard the confrotantion. There are a lot of tools, and the whole situation is maybe a little contrived. If he's going to claim self defense, why would he toss his gun? It's little inconsistencies that will hang the perp up.

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    $30k into legal defense fees, you might change your mind on CCTV policies ...

    Importantly, what if *you* can be racially stereotyped or have a record? Until neuroscientists improve lie detectors to the point where they're admissible, the law might not treat the victim as well as we'd like.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad426 View Post
    Well, YOU'RE the detective....

    But I'm guessing that's where prior records come into play. The BG in your weird scenario probably wouldn't have the same sqeaky-clean record that I do. Plus, since my story about why I was on this street would be true it would pan out where his may not.
    Ha!

    My thinking as well, but hopefully I'd be speaking through my lawyer.

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    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEF View Post
    Ha!

    My thinking as well, but hopefully I'd be speaking through my lawyer.
    You're my lawyer.
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    1. Ask for medical attention.
    2. Say "I am exercising my right to remain silent and I want a lawyer."
    3. Say absolutely nothing to LEOs, Medics, Doctors (except as it pertains to your medical care), or any other living soul until you talk to your lawyer.

    ANYTHING you say can & will be used against you in a court of law. NOTHING you say can be used to help you in a court of law.
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    Not to mention the fact that if he was willing to use the gun to commit a crime then it will probably come out that his gun was not legally purchased, whereas yours was.
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    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaGunny View Post
    1. Ask for medical attention.
    2. Say "I am exercising my right to remain silent and I want a lawyer."
    3. Say absolutely nothing to LEOs, Medics, Doctors (except as it pertains to your medical care), or any other living soul until you talk to your lawyer.

    ANYTHING you say can & will be used against you in a court of law. NOTHING you say can be used to help you in a court of law.


    I'm not a lawyer (but I have seen every episode of "Law and Order") and I think that's not true. Things people have said on the scene get testified to in court by LEO's and it is in their favor.

    I think the point you are trying to make (if I may be so bold) is that LEO's aren't there to help you, and that's true... but neither are they there to hurt you. In a perfect world they are there to get to the truth, whether that helps or hurts you.
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    Member Array patrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    Say for whatever reason you're walking somewhere after dark, could be just heading to your car, whatever - you're asked by two men walking on the other side of the street if you have any money. You say no and they cross over ahead you towards a populated area 5 min away in the direction you were going. You attempt to quickly walk back the way you came,not as much street-life here, and make plans to run to a house or scream help if they follow you this way. They do, you start to run, scream help, they run after you, , and out of breath you slow and face them and see one pull a gun out and start firing, it "pops" and you feel no hit, assume it's 22 or other low caliber and do the one thing available: pull your own gun and fire. You hit the guy, he's wounded but not critically but throws his gun away and lays prone. The Police arrive, and shortly after you begin to feel faint, ask for an ambulance, and then ask the cops to check for wounds around your stomach, where bad pain is starting. Sure enough, you've been hit, small hole but bleeding internally.

    Whenever the time comes to make a statement, yousr is that the assailant fired first and then you shot him. But he makes the same statement: you pulled your gun out, you fired and hit him, to keep from getting shot again he had to pull out his .22 and start shooting.

    Now, how would forensics be able to tell who shot first. And wouldn't the Police be left with a "He said/She Said" situation.

    I imagine this may happen on occasion if the BG is bot fatally wounded. Best defense is an offense - "HE shot first", (meaning You) I was trying to save my life and tried to shoot to keep from getting killed."

    How could anyone know what really happened in this kind of "double SD Claim"? Keep in mind too, the only witness may be the partner of the guy who was chasing you. It would be in his interest too to substantiate that you fired first. Beats a charge of robbery and participating in an attempted murder - you just claim you were attacked first and ACTED in SD.
    In your situation the only witness is you a dead guy and an accomplice. Just tell the entire truth to include the part where you started this story with "could be just heading to your car, whatever" the first thing we ask in an investigation is "what were you doing and where were you headed to"...if you lie about that or can't say which is considered "deception" it mucks up the rest of your account. Tell the truth and you fair way better.

    Also the way you probably should have handled the situation....why not get on your cell and dial 911 then make a declarative announcement to the thugs as you hold your handgun in a low ready manner "I have called the Police and I am armed and if you approach I will defend myself"..most cases they will move to easier prey and if they don't then it definitely supports following through on stopping them especially if they are armed. Two on one announcing they plan to rob you? I'd say there is a good chance you would be killed or seriously injured so armed or not why "hope" they would just take your money and leave a healthy witness?
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    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaGunny View Post

    ANYTHING you say can & will be used against you in a court of law. NOTHING you say can be used to help you in a court of law.
    Someone has seen "Never, ever, ever, ever talk to the police" And Brad should watch this talk.

    That said, my understanding is that in self-defense scenarios, and early claim of "I was acting in self-defense" is considered exculpatory. This is why the instructions in an SD shooting are to 1) wait for the police 2) give them your gun 3) say you believed your life was in danger 4) lawyer up.
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