How would you argue this?

This is a discussion on How would you argue this? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I understand your fathers concern. Just a couple of months ago in my neck of the woods, a father just dropped his wife at the ...

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  1. #46
    Ex Member Array lizjimbo's Avatar
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    I understand your fathers concern. Just a couple of months ago in my neck of the woods, a father just dropped his wife at the dvd kiosk in a Giant Food store. His daughters were in the back seat. While his wife was picking out the movie for the evening, the father started fumbling with his seat belt. While fumbling with his seat belt he managed to squeeze off a round into his femoral artery. The father bled to death in front of his wife and young daughters. He was only ten minutes from a major hospital.

    I do not carry a round chambered. If I am carrying my revolver then I keep one the chambers empty and carry with the hammer on that chamber.

    The father I spoke about in this first paragraph was not an isolated incident. I have stated my position on this before in this forum and have had my masculinity questioned by several of the members. I sincerely hope that I do have a right to carry without having the weapon ready to go boom in an instant.

    Being aware of what is around me is superior, for me of course, than being locked and loaded. So please, just my preference.
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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array 1MoreGoodGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizjimbo View Post
    ...While fumbling with his seat belt he managed to squeeze off a round into his femoral artery...I do not carry a round chambered...I sincerely hope that I do have a right to carry without having the weapon ready to go boom in an instant.

    Being aware of what is around me is superior, for me of course, than being locked and loaded. So please, just my preference.
    @lizjimbo: You certainly have a right to carry your firearm the way you want.


    To All:

    I'm not trying to start a war or throw fuel on the chambered vs. not chambered discussion. I just want to educate myself on different carry methods and the reasonings behind them.

    I'm curious if anyone here has made the personal choice to carry without a round chambered based solely on how someone other than you failed to handle a firearm in a correct and safe way.

    I'm also trying to figure out if there is logical reasoning which leads to an indisputable conclusion that a firearm which is being carried for defensive purposes should always be carried without a round in the chamber. Can anyone walk me through the logic diagram for this?
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  4. #48
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    liz, did reports mention whether he had a holster or was he just waistband carry? type of gun? carry in whatever weapon condition you want, i hope u never have to use your weapon and never have to find firsthand whether the extra seconds made a difference or not. as for me, i will carry chambered always and trust my ability to prevent nd/ad.
    Last edited by mulle46; October 16th, 2012 at 03:39 PM. Reason: autocorrect
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  5. #49
    Member Array Miamieddie's Avatar
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    If ur gonna carry ur gun without chanbering it leave it home!!! when something goes bad out there in the real world it happens in an instant. theres no warning its quick! t will make ur head spin nervous fumble ur weapon while trying to chamber it that day your life will end. probably with your own gun !! if you cant carry agun without shooting yourself then dont carry one cause ur more of a threat to yourself than the bad guy. and if you do carry one in the fashion you want to carry one (unchambered) ur a threat to yourself anyway. A good soldier is a prepare soldier aprepared soldier is a live one. no soldier carrys an unchambered weapon !!! you want to live do as i say please for your sake and your love one trust me..

  6. #50
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    It seems that you're not going to change your Dad's mind on this, so it may not be worth arguing about. Carry the way YOU are comfortable and let him do the same.
    You may want to find out who his "instructor" was and pay him a visit... Feel free to thump him in the head with a tack hammer... it'll be safe... his gun probably isn't loaded either
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  7. #51
    Member Array 3wggl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    @lizjimbo: You certainly have a right to carry your firearm the way you want.


    To All:

    I'm not trying to start a war or throw fuel on the chambered vs. not chambered discussion. I just want to educate myself on different carry methods and the reasonings behind them.

    I'm curious if anyone here has made the personal choice to carry without a round chambered based solely on how someone other than you failed to handle a firearm in a correct and safe way.

    I'm also trying to figure out if there is logical reasoning which leads to an indisputable conclusion that a firearm which is being carried for defensive purposes should always be carried without a round in the chamber. Can anyone walk me through the logic diagram for this?
    To your first question, yes, I personally choose to carry condition 3 due in part to the numerous stories of experienced and responsible firearm handlers having ND's. Although I live by the four rules and have never had an ND, it appears to me we're all human and capable of making that one mistake over 30 years of handling condition 1 firearms. Obviously, if you always follow the four rules, you'll never have an ND but unfortunately even the best and most highly trained gun owners have and will continue to fail basic gun safety at times.

    As to your second question, I think it all comes down to personal preference. How do you want to distribute risk? If your only goal is to be best prepared to defend yourself in an SD scenario, Condition 1/loaded chamber is obviously superior to condition 3/empty chamber. By carrying C3, you handicap yourself against many SD scenarios and your choice to carry C3 may lead to your demise. That said, a C3 weapon is not a brick as some may suggest as it can be brought into action in a split second longer than a C1 weapon. Carrying C3 requires you be proficient in bringing your weapon into action and requires you take different actions in the event you don't have time to chamber a round. The benefit of C3 is you nearly eliminate the risk of ND's while carrying or during administrative handlings.

    Although playing the numbers game is typically a bad idea, I choose to weigh the relatively low risk of ever needing to fire my weapon in an SD scenario where I wouldn't have time to chamber a round against the risk of having an ND that could injure or kill myself or an innocent person. I wish we had stats as I wonder which is more common - negligent discharges or occurrences where someone has to fire in self defense?

    Edit: here is a good article that displays some of the reasons why someone might choose C3 -

    http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.c...ry-or-why.html

  8. #52
    Senior Member Array mano3's Avatar
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    The course I went to, taught by the local police, told us to carry loaded...
    US Air Force, 1986 - 2007

    "To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them..." George Mason

  9. #53
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrsHB View Post
    THIS!

    But I think you're dealing with "powdered butt" syndrome.

    Meaning, no one will be corrected by someone whose butt they powdered as an infant.

    Good luck anyway.
    Most never get over it.

  10. #54
    Member Array bigredfish's Avatar
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    I think others have already said what I would. I carry every time I leave my home, Every time, and I carry with a round chambered with guns that are DA/SA and have no manual safety. I train with these weapons weekly. (and read up on the laws in my state as much as possible.) Carrying any other way (not loaded, not chambered) is a fools game. It make make you "feel" better, but it won't likely be any good to you if you should need it. Indeed, carrying unloaded is asking for even greater problems, best to leave it at home.

  11. #55
    Member Array STLRampage's Avatar
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    You can do what I do. Tell them they have a great opinion and carry on doing what you want to do.

    Sometimes you just can't change someones mind.

  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizjimbo View Post
    I understand your fathers concern. Just a couple of months ago in my neck of the woods, a father just dropped his wife at the dvd kiosk in a Giant Food store. His daughters were in the back seat. While his wife was picking out the movie for the evening, the father started fumbling with his seat belt. While fumbling with his seat belt he managed to squeeze off a round into his femoral artery. The father bled to death in front of his wife and young daughters. He was only ten minutes from a major hospital.

    I do not carry a round chambered. If I am carrying my revolver then I keep one the chambers empty and carry with the hammer on that chamber.

    The father I spoke about in this first paragraph was not an isolated incident. I have stated my position on this before in this forum and have had my masculinity questioned by several of the members. I sincerely hope that I do have a right to carry without having the weapon ready to go boom in an instant.

    Being aware of what is around me is superior, for me of course, than being locked and loaded. So please, just my preference.
    Credit where credit is due. It was reported initially that he was using a flimsy holster to carry the pistol, but later reported that he had it in no holster at all, just tucked in his waist band. A firm, well made holster which covers the trigger is critical for safely carrying.
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  13. #57
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    "takes 3 seconds to load"

    Three seconds is a real world ETERNITY when the bad guy is running at you at breakneck speed and ready to cave your head in with a tire iron.

    Dad might be right most of the time but, he is wrong on that topic of conversation.
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  14. #58
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaDawg View Post
    Carry your weapon around field-stripped. No sense in scaring anyone with a fully-assembled firearm that isn't ready to be fired, anyway. Plus, if you practice, you can put the slide on the gun in just a couple of seconds. Obviously seconds don't matter, so why not?
    What a horrible waste of liquidity! Not only are you carrying around a potentially lethal device, but you've also tied up a bunch of your cash that could be re-invested instead of plunked into a sunk cost that will (statistically, let's face it) never really be of use.

    Now, I'm as defensive minded as anyone, and that's why I have an app on my smartphone that autoloads the pistols page on eBay. I figure I'll just buy one if I find that I need it.
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  15. #59
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    Not sure what part of the military you've seen, but it wasn't mine. Unloaded in a war zone? Not happening.
    It has happened.

    Marine barracks, Beirut Lebanon, 1983 for one of the worst examples.

    There are more recent stories just a few Google clicks away.

  16. #60
    Ex Member Array lizjimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miamieddie View Post
    If ur gonna carry ur gun without chanbering it leave it home!!! when something goes bad out there in the real world it happens in an instant. theres no warning its quick! t will make ur head spin nervous fumble ur weapon while trying to chamber it that day your life will end. probably with your own gun !! if you cant carry agun without shooting yourself then dont carry one cause ur more of a threat to yourself than the bad guy. and if you do carry one in the fashion you want to carry one (unchambered) ur a threat to yourself anyway. A good soldier is a prepare soldier aprepared soldier is a live one. no soldier carrys an unchambered weapon !!! you want to live do as i say please for your sake and your love one trust me..
    This was exactly the point I was trying to make about some folks not understanding the first thing about my right to feel safe and about what makes me feel safer. If you think that you need to have a round chambered every time you walk out your door perhaps you should never leave home or possibly an evaluation to check on some deep seated paranoia. Quite frankly I know plenty of soldiers. This is not Iraq nor Afghanistan. One soldier I knew was in Iraq during the beginning of the war...that is 2003 for those that just turned 20 years old. His very clear memory of his time there, especially on early patrols in populated areas, they were ordered to not even put magazines in to their rifles. So I don't want to hear how soldiers do anything. Once the US turns into Tikrit or Kandhar perhaps I will think differently. In the mean time I am not going to play John Wayne in the Green Berets. You sir, may carry chambered until pigs fly. I did not question your motives or your sensibilties. But I will tell you this, I will never shoot myself in the leg and bleed to death in front of my children because it is not necessary in this country to constantly be ready on a moments notice to kill someone. That is TV drama of the highest order. You let me do what I feel is safe and you sir, may do the same. Is this clear?

    Frankly if you think you have to keep a round in the chamber, it will be much safer for everybody, including yourself and your family, for you to get rid of all of your firearms.

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