How would you argue this? - Page 5

How would you argue this?

This is a discussion on How would you argue this? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by lizjimbo But I will tell you this, I will never shoot myself in the leg and bleed to death in front of ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizjimbo View Post
    But I will tell you this, I will never shoot myself in the leg and bleed to death in front of my children because it is not necessary in this country to constantly be ready on a moments notice to kill someone. That is TV drama of the highest order.
    Every situation's different. But when it happens, it can turn deadly on a dime. Particularly when an assailant is within striking distance. Doesn't take traveling to "Tikrit" to see such things: Trip to Gas Station got Ugly Fast.
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  2. #62
    Ex Member Array lizjimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Credit where credit is due. It was reported initially that he was using a flimsy holster to carry the pistol, but later reported that he had it in no holster at all, just tucked in his waist band. A firm, well made holster which covers the trigger is critical for safely carrying.
    The message is that the guy bled to death in front of his children just after they had to endure the very loud and sharp report of their fathers firearm and then get to inhale the acrid smoke of a discharged round while their father, in the front seat, is begging for his life to be spared. This accident was completely and 100% avoidable, but I am sure Dad just got his CCW in Virginia and needed to scratch the itch. What difference does it make on how the guy was carrying his weapon. The guy is no less dead. A mess of people are dead because of clumsily handling firearms they think are safe to handle the way they want to handle them. Their is a video on youtube that shows an LEO doing show and tell in a class room. He has his service weapon out and he is explaining to the kids how he is the only properly trained person in that room and only he knows how to handle the firearm where upon he proceeds to shoot himself in the foot. Now he is an LEO and he clearly had a round chambered and he ended up shooting himself during show and tell. LEO's do this kind of thing often. Now then I do suspect that even regular citizens also do this. So why do I carry without the firearm in a condition that I can shoot myself in the foot...I don't want to shoot myself in the foot.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Array Chief1297's Avatar
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    How would I argue this? My first attempt is with common sense. If that doesnt work, I change the subject. You cant change illogical thought without a life changing event.
    Equality does not exist in the real world - it is a fiction to help the self esteem of those people who consistently fail to succeed.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizjimbo View Post
    The message is that the guy bled to death in front of his children just after they had to endure the very loud and sharp report of their fathers firearm and then get to inhale the acrid smoke of a discharged round while their father, in the front seat, is begging for his life to be spared. This accident was completely and 100% avoidable, but I am sure Dad just got his CCW in Virginia and needed to scratch the itch. What difference does it make on how the guy was carrying his weapon. The guy is no less dead. A mess of people are dead because of clumsily handling firearms they think are safe to handle the way they want to handle them. Their is a video on youtube that shows an LEO doing show and tell in a class room. He has his service weapon out and he is explaining to the kids how he is the only properly trained person in that room and only he knows how to handle the firearm where upon he proceeds to shoot himself in the foot. Now he is an LEO and he clearly had a round chambered and he ended up shooting himself during show and tell. LEO's do this kind of thing often. Now then I do suspect that even regular citizens also do this. So why do I carry without the firearm in a condition that I can shoot myself in the foot...I don't want to shoot myself in the foot.
    The LEO in that video shot himself in the foot because he chose not to follow several of the safety rules. He had his finger on the trigger as he was holstering his firearm while the muzzle was pointed at something (his foot) he was not willing to destroy. He also chose to unholster his loaded firearm in front of a classroom full of students even though there was no circumstances present which would make the unholstering of a firearm justified. If memory serves (been a while since I watched that video), the LEO also points his firearm at the ceiling, the wall at the front of the classroom and the floor...in a school!!! What is his firearm pointed at and what is beyond??? What kind of an Idiot (yes he is an Idiot) plays Show & Tell with a loaded firearm in a school full of children?
    phreddy, accessbob and oneshot like this.
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  5. #65
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizjimbo View Post
    This was exactly the point I was trying to make about some folks not understanding the first thing about my right to feel safe and about what makes me feel safer. If you think that you need to have a round chambered every time you walk out your door perhaps you should never leave home or possibly an evaluation to check on some deep seated paranoia. Quite frankly I know plenty of soldiers. This is not Iraq nor Afghanistan. One soldier I knew was in Iraq during the beginning of the war...that is 2003 for those that just turned 20 years old. His very clear memory of his time there, especially on early patrols in populated areas, they were ordered to not even put magazines in to their rifles. So I don't want to hear how soldiers do anything. Once the US turns into Tikrit or Kandhar perhaps I will think differently. In the mean time I am not going to play John Wayne in the Green Berets. You sir, may carry chambered until pigs fly. I did not question your motives or your sensibilties. But I will tell you this, I will never shoot myself in the leg and bleed to death in front of my children because it is not necessary in this country to constantly be ready on a moments notice to kill someone. That is TV drama of the highest order. You let me do what I feel is safe and you sir, may do the same. Is this clear?Frankly if you think you have to keep a round in the chamber, it will be much safer for everybody, including yourself and your family, for you to get rid of all of your firearms.
    So which is it? Are those of us who are comfortable with carrying a condition 1 weapon allowed in your opinion to leave our homes or should we be shut-in and or give away our firearms? If I KNEW when I would need my firearm for a sd situation, I would avoid that situation. One never knows when one might have to use it. I want to be in the most advantageous position I can be, if the time comes that I have to use my weapon.
    accessbob likes this.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizjimbo View Post
    This accident was completely and 100% avoidable ... What difference does it make on how the guy was carrying his weapon.
    Agreed ... all the difference in the world.

    You answered your own question before you asked it.
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  7. #67
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    this thread smells familiar.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizjimbo View Post
    The message is that the guy bled to death in front of his children just after they had to endure the very loud and sharp report of their fathers firearm and then get to inhale the acrid smoke of a discharged round while their father, in the front seat, is begging for his life to be spared. This accident was completely and 100% avoidable, but I am sure Dad just got his CCW in Virginia and needed to scratch the itch. What difference does it make on how the guy was carrying his weapon. The guy is no less dead. A mess of people are dead because of clumsily handling firearms they think are safe to handle the way they want to handle them. Their is a video on youtube that shows an LEO doing show and tell in a class room. He has his service weapon out and he is explaining to the kids how he is the only properly trained person in that room and only he knows how to handle the firearm where upon he proceeds to shoot himself in the foot. Now he is an LEO and he clearly had a round chambered and he ended up shooting himself during show and tell. LEO's do this kind of thing often. Now then I do suspect that even regular citizens also do this. So why do I carry without the firearm in a condition that I can shoot myself in the foot...I don't want to shoot myself in the foot.
    Dwell within the comfort zone of your own limitations.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    "takes 3 seconds to load"

    Three seconds is a real world ETERNITY when the bad guy is running at you at breakneck speed and ready to cave your head in with a tire iron.

    Dad might be right most of the time but, he is wrong on that topic of conversation.
    "3 seconds to load" is also on "his time, his start point, his ready, set, GO", not on an all of the sudden, attacker out of nowhere's timeline. It would be interesting to see, if he agreed, that at some point during a 24 hour period you started yelling "LOAD LOAD LOAD or ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK", if he could load an airsoft pistol, or magazine with snapcaps into his pistol and rack the slide in 3 seconds. I wonder if he would be interested in putting it to the test as well.
    accessbob likes this.

  10. #70
    Distinguished Member Array GlassWolf's Avatar
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    Also, on a side note, have your dad look into something called the "OODA Loop."
    I can draw and shoot a target faster than someone holding a gun on me can react to that and pull the trigger. Now if you think you can draw, rack, de-safety, acquire your sight picture and fire in that same amount of time.. good luck.

  11. #71
    Member Array daveb413's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizjimbo View Post
    The message is that the guy bled to death in front of his children just after they had to endure the very loud and sharp report of their fathers firearm and then get to inhale the acrid smoke of a discharged round while their father, in the front seat, is begging for his life to be spared. This accident was completely and 100% avoidable, but I am sure Dad just got his CCW in Virginia and needed to scratch the itch. What difference does it make on how the guy was carrying his weapon. The guy is no less dead. A mess of people are dead because of clumsily handling firearms they think are safe to handle the way they want to handle them. Their is a video on youtube that shows an LEO doing show and tell in a class room. He has his service weapon out and he is explaining to the kids how he is the only properly trained person in that room and only he knows how to handle the firearm where upon he proceeds to shoot himself in the foot. Now he is an LEO and he clearly had a round chambered and he ended up shooting himself during show and tell. LEO's do this kind of thing often. Now then I do suspect that even regular citizens also do this. So why do I carry without the firearm in a condition that I can shoot myself in the foot...I don't want to shoot myself in the foot.
    Is the bold section actually a question or just rhetorical? It makes all the difference in the world, a properly holstered firearm would have the trigger covered and would not be able to be discharged negligently.
    phreddy and accessbob like this.

  12. #72
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizjimbo View Post
    I do not carry a round chambered. If I am carrying my revolver then I keep one the chambers empty and carry with the hammer on that chamber.
    You carry an old style revolver? That "empty chamber" bit was to avoid a blow to the back of the hammer driving the firing pin into the primer. A double action revolver will move a loaded chamber under the hammer as the trigger is pulled.

    Quote Originally Posted by lizjimbo View Post
    I have stated my position on this before in this forum and have had my masculinity questioned by several of the members. I sincerely hope that I do have a right to carry without having the weapon ready to go boom in an instant.

    Being aware of what is around me is superior, for me of course, than being locked and loaded. So please, just my preference.
    I doubt most here would bother questioning masculinity (especially considering some of the definitely unmasculine ladies here). Sanity and sense, OTOH...

    No one is immune to being taken by surprise. And, even if you see a situation far enough ahead that you normally would be able to load, you cannot be sure your hands are free to use that time.

    But: "Yup. Your choice. No skin off my nose."

  13. #73
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizjimbo View Post
    This was exactly the point I was trying to make about some folks not understanding the first thing about my right to feel safe and about what makes me feel safer. If you think that you need to have a round chambered every time you walk out your door perhaps you should never leave home or possibly an evaluation to check on some deep seated paranoia. Quite frankly I know plenty of soldiers. This is not Iraq nor Afghanistan. One soldier I knew was in Iraq during the beginning of the war...that is 2003 for those that just turned 20 years old. His very clear memory of his time there, especially on early patrols in populated areas, they were ordered to not even put magazines in to their rifles. So I don't want to hear how soldiers do anything. Once the US turns into Tikrit or Kandhar perhaps I will think differently. In the mean time I am not going to play John Wayne in the Green Berets. You sir, may carry chambered until pigs fly. I did not question your motives or your sensibilties. But I will tell you this, I will never shoot myself in the leg and bleed to death in front of my children because it is not necessary in this country to constantly be ready on a moments notice to kill someone. That is TV drama of the highest order. You let me do what I feel is safe and you sir, may do the same. Is this clear?

    Frankly if you think you have to keep a round in the chamber, it will be much safer for everybody, including yourself and your family, for you to get rid of all of your firearms.
    I'm sorry....I'm not buying the "no loaded weapons in Iraq in 2003" story....I was in Iraq in 2003...March until June....and then 2004, March until September. We were locked and loaded the entire time.

    Secondly, how high is that horse you are on? Your post is inflammatory. You have your reasons for carrying the way you do...IMO, you are an amateur and untrained and unsure of your firearm and gun handling skills--that can be fixed. Living in ignorance...well, that's up to you to address.

    Third, see the article in his thread: appears cooperating doesn't work either... Then do a search on carrying loaded vs unloaded. You'll find that good training from a reputable trainer can ally your fears of properly carrying a defensive firearm. A quality holster/belt combination and self-discipline keeping your finger off the trigger will prevent NDs.
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  14. #74
    Member Array Ogre's Avatar
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    Yes, the father in the afore mentioned incident made 2 fatal errors; the first was exacerbated by the second-carrying a loaded/chambered firearm in an unsafe manner. Modern weapons will not (generally) fire unless the trigger is pulled. Had the father not had a round chambered, true the gun would not have gone off, however, had he had the weapon properly holstered the trigger would not have been pulled and again the gun would not have fired. IMHO, if you are going to carry a firearm you should do so responsibly, carry in a functional, SAFE, holster at all times-whether chambered or not. If "not" is the case then you have just added an additional "safety" to the weapon by having it properly holstered, now you have several layers of safety (1-Safety (if so epuipped); 2-holster; 3-no round in the chamber). I personally carry for my protection, an unloaded gun cannot perform that function; an unchambered weapon is IMHO effectively unloaded. I always carry in a holster which covers the trigger, for administrative handling (entering a "no firearms" area) I do NOT remove the firearm from the holster, I remove the holster from my person and stow it. The only time my firearm leaves the holster is when I am going to fire it, or clean it period. If asked by LEO to remove my firearm (traffic stop etc) I remove my BUG from my pocket, holster and all, and unfasten my belt and slide my primary holster and all off the belt. For cleaning, I remove my holster, then remove the firearm from the holster. I do not clean my weapons with anyone around and the muzzle is ALWAYS pointed in a safe direction, after cleaning, the weapon is reloaded, inserted into the holster then stored or placed back onto my person.

    [edited to add]

    Carrying UNLOADED adds yet another time consuming action to a situation which time is limited. Lets see, BG attacking, I have X seconds to end threat; X-1 to draw weapon vs X-1 (draw weapon)-1 chamber round vs. X-1 (draw weapon) -3 (load weapon) -1 chamber weapon. And this is if using an auto, even longer with my primary weapon (revolver).

    Note: yes, I am backwards, I carry a revolver primary and semi auto BUG, but my revolver is big and my semi small soooooo....
    accessbob likes this.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyDTrigger View Post
    He is making that up... no way an instructor would say that.
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