How would you argue this?
This is a discussion on How would you argue this? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've recently had a few debates/discussions with my father about carry options. Not in so much of should carry vs. should not (in fact he ...
October 15th, 2012 05:56 PM
How would you argue this?
I've recently had a few debates/discussions with my father about carry options. Not in so much of should carry vs. should not (in fact he was the one who encouraged me to take the CCW course in the first place) but loaded vs. unloaded.
He always chides me for carrying loaded (whether chambered or not), saying that "You should never carry loaded. It's not safe." Even stating that his CCW instructor pressed that point on the class; to not carry loaded. That it "takes 3 seconds to load" is reason enough to not carry loaded. He also always ends up responding with "Take a basic pistol safety course. They'll all tell you never carry loaded."
I've tried telling him "You don't always have 3 seconds to load" or "If you need to use it, the threat isn't going to wait for you to load" Et cetera, et cetera. But it doesn't get through to him.
So I'm at a loss of how to actually get my point across to him. Suggestions?
October 15th, 2012 06:03 PM
Tueller Drill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Name one police department in America that carries unloaded. Does he go hunting unloaded? Does the military go unloaded? What kind of gun does he own that isnt safe loaded and holstered?
I honestly cant think of one good reason to carry unchambered, let alone unloaded!
Certified Kitchen Gunsmith
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive."
- C.S. Lewis
October 15th, 2012 06:06 PM
"An unloaded gun is an expensive rock" ????
Set up some drills, very carefully.
Him with his gun unloaded, empty mag on hand (really, really be sure no ammo is around). You come at him, see if he can draw, load and aim (at a point away from you) before you can touch him. Sort of a variation on the Teuller drill.
Or just time him on the draw/load/aim drill.
The only common sense gun legislation was written about 224 years ago.
I carry always not because I go places trouble is likely, but because trouble has a habit of not staying in its assigned zone.
October 15th, 2012 06:09 PM
That's one point I argued with him. I can understand not carrying chambered, but never completely unloaded. It would be a one in ten billion chance of a situation arising where a semi-auto could rack a round while holstered. An order of magnitude less likely if you have a thumb safety as well. He still just looked blankly at me and said "You should never carry loaded. Ask your Uncle."
Originally Posted by NMB
For reference, my uncle is an avid hunter and a retired paramedic/firefighter with 30 years experience. My father didn't respond when I noted that whenever my uncle would take me hunting with him when I was younger, he'd have me carry a fully loaded and chambered shotgun - we only ever unloaded when we got to the truck because it was required by law to do so at that point.
October 15th, 2012 06:13 PM
Grab a few Airsoft guns and spend some time proving your point.
Mors est libertas
October 15th, 2012 06:20 PM
Lots of people, even instructors, misinterpret or misrepresent the NRA's third rule of gun safety, "ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use" to mean that the gun should not be loaded until ready to fire.
"The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." - Thucydides
October 15th, 2012 06:32 PM
There are only two possible states to be in and those are ready and not ready. Almost ready is still not ready.
Round chambered = round ready to be fired
Round ready to be fired = a state of ready
Round not chambered = round not ready to be fired
Round not ready to be fired = a state of not ready
Chambered and ready to go just seems a whole lot more logical to me than not chambered and not ready to go.
I'm not quite sure why anyone would want to keep their first round in a state of unreadiness.
The states of ready and not ready are polar opposites.
Even though there are two possible states to be in (ready or not ready), you can only be in one state at any given time and only one of those two states can be considered the correct state to be in when imminent danger presents itself.
When imminent danger presents itself, do you want to be ready or not ready? I choose ready.
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October 15th, 2012 06:42 PM
you can't argue it. because he doesn't sound like he is willing to budge.
October 15th, 2012 06:48 PM
Wait, unloaded ????
[hits delete key a buncha times]
I've got nothing.
October 15th, 2012 06:49 PM
I never carry loaded. Not when I have this nice pistol-shaped club on my belt, lol.
Seriously - always loaded: 14 rounds in the mag +1 in the pipe & a spare 14 round mag. This is from someone who likes to boast that he only need one shot to finish the job, lol.
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Retired PI/Armed Security
October 15th, 2012 06:51 PM
Limatunes has a youtube video on this. Show him that. Doubt it will change his mind, though.
Sent via mental telepathy
October 15th, 2012 06:55 PM
Tell him that he should not be carrying at all if he is going to carry unchambered.
"Was there no end to the conspiracy of irrational prejudice against Red Ryder and his peacemaker?"
Revolvers, “more elegant weapons for a more civilized age.”
October 15th, 2012 07:00 PM
Next time he tells you that just say, "Right, Dad". And then change the subject to football.
You've made every reasonable argument and he doesn't sound willing to change. His mind is made up, further debate is useless. The only way his mind will be changed is when he finds himself in a tight spot and thinks, "I sure wish I loaded my gun 3 seconds ago." And let's hope that doesn't happen.
October 15th, 2012 07:14 PM
Do as you please and let Dad do the same. He is wrong of course but he's managed to stay above ground this long and not likely to change his mind now. He doesn't feel safe carrying a loaded gun and that's it.
October 15th, 2012 07:17 PM
If you aren't going to carry it loaded, then just don't carry at all. What's the point? In a panic situation, you're going to be more dangerous trying to load the stupid thing than carrying it the way it was designed. Just make sure you have a good quality holster and belt, made for that weapon that covers the trigger.
Tune him in to YouTube with videos of criminals robbing, mugging, stabbing or shooting someone and have him pretend he's there, trying to load a SD weapon. I think he's going to be shocked how much faster it really happens vs. whatever it is he's picturing. And I've yet to see a BG honor a time-out for someone to load up.
In short, 1. They are designed for it, (SAFE) and 2. there is no time to play around when you actually need it.
In court, methinks that he's going to have a tough time when questioned about having enough time to load a weapon from empty but not enough time to get away.
IMO, carrying a firearm unloaded or not chambered is a good way to get dead when confronting someone who wants to kill you.
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Crossman 760 BB/Pellet, Daisy Red Ryder, Crossman Wrist Rocket, 14 Steak Knives, 3 Fillet Knives, Rolling Pin-14", Various Hunting Knives, 2 Baseball Bats, 3 Big Dogs and a big American Flag flying in the yard. I have no firearms; Try the next house.
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