Don't let your ego get in the way. - Page 5

Don't let your ego get in the way.

This is a discussion on Don't let your ego get in the way. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by OldVet And that's where so many SD claims can go wrong. Not that someone failed to run away, but that the incident ...

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  1. #61
    Ex Member Array CaveJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    And that's where so many SD claims can go wrong. Not that someone failed to run away, but that the incident was easily avoidable.
    It seems to depend, like in Seth Browning's case. The police report exonerates him, but he stopped his car and let Brandon Baker approach him and attack. He could've driven away, or never stopped in the first place.

    That's the thing that SYG law is murky on, and my biggest issue with it. It's like standing there and watching some guy approach you from 100ft and he's looking for a fight. Instead of getting in your car and leaving, you just shoot him. Easily avoidable, but with SYG it seems like that would be perfectly okay.

    Just seems like it can be easily abused.


  2. #62
    Member Array Miamieddie's Avatar
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    If a verbal confrontation in the streets starts to escalate why do we always have to kill the poor idiot why dont we just stop him by shooting out his knee caps !!!! Now were not facing (MURDER) nor its on ur conscience of killing a human being, lets get out of our heads on killing and lets talk about stopping... In the public there are cameras, people, witnesses, etc. now when ur home then you shoot to kill.... Eddie

  3. #63
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miamieddie View Post
    If a verbal confrontation in the streets starts to escalate why do we always have to kill the poor idiot why dont we just stop him by shooting out his knee caps !!!! Now were not facing (MURDER) nor its on ur conscience of killing a human being, lets get out of our heads on killing and lets talk about stopping... In the public there are cameras, people, witnesses, etc. now when ur home then you shoot to kill.... Eddie

    I hope you're joking. if not:
    1. I hope you're very rich.
    2. I hope you don't carry a gun.
    3. I look forward to reading about your escapades in the paper.
    4. I hope the antis don't see the articles.


    Knee capping... indeed. what a wonderful thought.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  4. #64
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    Thanks for sharing this. This is something that I plan to read every day when I wake up. I needed a reminder today when I was taking my son to school. There is a old one lane bridge about 3 blocks from my house and generally people are good about yielding to whoever seems closest to crossing the bridge. Today as I approached the bridge, a car approached from the opposite direction, but was further away. They didn't pull over to the side to let me pass. At first, I couldn't believe they weren't going to yield, but I decided to back up and let them pass. In the past, I probably would have yelled something choice at them, but since I've been carrying, I've had to sublimate the old ego and just let it pass (pun intended!).

    Having a concealed permit has made me calmer and willing to let things go. It's not worth having a fight over something as trivial as who gets to go first.
    tacman605 and Remy like this.
    Ben

    Cogito, ergo armatum sum. I think, therefore I am armed. (Don Mann, The Modern Day Gunslinger; the ultimate handgun training manual)


  5. #65
    Member Array Miamieddie's Avatar
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    I guess im missing something here i'll learn more when I get my weapons permitt, for now I cant get myself to kill someone unarmed he just wants to fight me , and I know hes bigger and stronger, but if he has a weapon on him no matter his size that changes everything...

  6. #66
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miamieddie View Post
    I guess im missing something here i'll learn more when I get my weapons permitt, for now I cant get myself to kill someone unarmed he just wants to fight me , and I know hes bigger and stronger, but if he has a weapon on him no matter his size that changes everything...
    You are indeed missing something... While you're waiting for your permit, find the first book I have listed in my signature line... get it at your local library... pay a few bux if you have to, to get it through interlibrary loan. Read it a couple of times.

    Even in Florida, you aren't going to be using your gun to shoot somebody who's lippin' off...

    The moment you unholster your gun, you are demonstrating deadly force. In nearly every state, you can only do so when your life is in imminent danger or you could suffer grave bodily injury. In the home it is slightly different, and that can even depend on the time of day (depending on state).
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  7. #67
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    [QUOTE]ONLY THING I DISAGREE WITH,,,,, no statement will I give UNTIL MY LAWYER ARRIVES,,,, and
    probably not EVEN THEN,,,,, nothing you can say will HELP YOU,,,,, CAN ONLY HURT,,,, anything
    that helps YOU, WILL BE RULED HERE SAY.

    Types of things the police might tell you to get you to talk to them:

    "If you don't answer my questions, I'll have no choice but to arrest you. Do you want to go to jail?" (They will arrest you either way.)
    "You're not a suspect - just help us understand what happened here and then you can go." (They will arrest you after you talk.)
    "If you don't answer my questions, I'm going to charge you with resisting arrest." (They will arrest you either way)
    "All of your friends have cooperated and we let them go home. You're the only one left." (They will arrest you either way.)
    "You are just here voluntarily and we appreciate you helping us with this. You are free to leave at any time." (If you try to leave, they arrest you.)



    Not knocking your post I understand what you are trying to say I think but some of your information is wrong or misquoted.

    no statement will I give UNTIL MY LAWYER ARRIVES,,,, and
    probably not EVEN THEN,,,


    First part understood and probably a good idea but the second part. So even with your lawyer you will stand mute and not give a statement? Why?

    nothing you can say will HELP YOU,,,,, CAN ONLY HURT,,

    So you giving the truthful, accurate statement of events in the presence of your attorney will hurt you? Please explain how?

    In regards to both of the bolded comments if you do not give a statement all they have to go by is the other guy and his buddies giving an explanation.

    anything
    that helps YOU, WILL BE RULED HERE SAY.


    Do you even know what the definition of hearsay evidence is?

    hear∑say (hÓrs)
    n.
    1. Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.
    2. Law Evidence based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge of a witness and therefore generally not admissible as testimony.


    Any statement YOU give is direct testimony. If your third cousin's, brother's mother said it that would be hearsay.

    "If you don't answer my questions, I'll have no choice but to arrest you. Do you want to go to jail?" (They will arrest you either way.)

    They cannot arrest you if no crime has been committed. I assure you with your attorney present he will tell them if you have enough to charge my client do so if not we are leaving. Either they do or they don't.

    "You're not a suspect - just help us understand what happened here and then you can go." (They will arrest you after you talk.)

    Again either they have probable cause to arrest you or they don't simple as that.


    "If you don't answer my questions, I'm going to charge you with resisting arrest." (They will arrest you either way)

    I will only speak for my home state in regards to this. There are two kinds of resisting arrest. Active, you are physically fighting, pulling away from LE and Passive, a sit in type situation. You are not fighting but you simply sit there and not do anything. Again other states may have different laws but as far as I know you are not under any obligation to give a statement at the time so how can you be charged with resisting arrest by not talking to them.

    "All of your friends have cooperated and we let them go home. You're the only one left." (They will arrest you either way.)

    Unless this is six people shooting the same guy I don't really care if they cooperated or not, they were not involved in a shooting. Again your attorney is there for just this purpose.

    "You are just here voluntarily and we appreciate you helping us with this. You are free to leave at any time." (If you try to leave, they arrest you.)


    This is a true statement, except for the last part. Unless you are charged with a crime you can get up and walk out. If you feel so compelled as soon as the words come out simply say "Ok, thank you" and leave. If they have enough of a case to charge you then they will but if they do not they can't.

    I have been to the website you linked, I have seen the video before and it does bring up some key points, yes he is an attorney and I am not. Now with that out of the way.

    I was a cop for a long, long time. It is no super secret ninja thing that LE does not have to tell the suspect the truth. "Billy we have a video of you breaking into the store" when there is not a camera for miles. "Bobby, your brother Billy said you broke into the store" when Billy has not even been talked to. They are interview and interrogation tactics taught at the academy. I case you are wondering this technique is absolutely legal backed by multiple case law.

    I think between my lawyer and I we can decide what questions to answer, whether or not to give a statement but you are assuming that everything is a witch hunt and yes it happens, but not everything is. I agree completely get an attorney before you do anything if that is what you want to do. Yes you may be arrested anyway IF AND ONLY IF there is probable cause for such an arrest not "Just because".
    CaveJohnson likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  8. #68
    Ex Member Array CaveJohnson's Avatar
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    Will most really arrest you if they say you're free to go? I've seen more than a few encounter videos where they ask "Am I under arrest? No? Then can I leave?" and do so when given the word.

  9. #69
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miamieddie View Post
    I guess im missing something here i'll learn more when I get my weapons permitt, for now I cant get myself to kill someone unarmed he just wants to fight me , and I know hes bigger and stronger, but if he has a weapon on him no matter his size that changes everything...
    As oakchas suggests above, it's well worth picking up a copy of Ayoob's book, In The Gravest Extreme. It'll go into many of the potholes that exist for anyone involved in a dire situation or altercation, including the statutory and practical distinctions that can occur when something blows sideways.

    And being in FLA, it's worth picking up a copy of Gutmacher's book on FLA statutes as well, Florida Firearms Law, Use and Ownership.

    Disparity of force is a tricky thing, and the statutes in a given state might well not mention anything of the sort. Someone coming at you without an apparent man-made weapon in evidence can be absolutely dangerous and a threat to life and limb. It depends on the totality of circumstances. It generally depends on the "reasonable man" standard as well. And it absolutely will depend on the statutes in the state where the situation occurs. Ayoob's book goes into all of this, and more.

    Nothing justifies deadly force over mere words. But as we all know, actions can quickly and explosively follow mere words, or even occur without any words at all. And a situation can be more dangerous simply due to its location (ie, occurring at the top of a cliff/bluff) or other factors (ie, stuck in desert with threat to steal car, water). Those two books and a bit of training on use-of-force should help quite a bit.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  10. #70
    Member Array BradL's Avatar
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    I'm all for defending myself. I too am nobody's doormat. But if you don't have enough self control to NOT bring a gun to a fistfight, then you have no business carrying a weapon in the first place. Because you're carrying a gun, you are held to a higher standard both legally and in the public eye. When a guy walks into my bank or 7-11 with a gun and opens fire, then I'll probably have to drop him, but if someone is attacking me with just words, then I'll find other means to defend myself than the gun at my side....
    tacman605 likes this.
    I don't want to be a hero, but I'm sure not going to be a victim.

    Hydrogen and human stupidty are the two most common elements on earth, not necessarily in that order. -- Albert Einstein

  11. #71
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    Brad. First welcome to the forum.

    Your post brings up a rather catchy slogan. We all hear the one about bringing a knife to a gunfight but your comment about bringing a gun to a fist fight makes just as much sense, even more.

    Common sense, there's those words again, and a thick skin are just as important survival skills as a gun and the training to go with it.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  12. #72
    Member Array BradL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Brad. First welcome to the forum.

    Your post brings up a rather catchy slogan. We all hear the one about bringing a knife to a gunfight but your comment about bringing a gun to a fist fight makes just as much sense, even more.

    Common sense, there's those words again, and a thick skin are just as important survival skills as a gun and the training to go with it.
    Thanks. You're advice and comments I see on other threads in the forum has taught me some things about CC. I appreciate your wisdom and words to myself and others who are new to CC. My wife is taking her CC class next weekend and is in the process of buying her first handgun. I have printed your words at the beginning of this thread to show her because it is something we cannot forget or get complacent about. The minute we do is when something happens that we'll regret for the rest of our lives.
    I don't want to be a hero, but I'm sure not going to be a victim.

    Hydrogen and human stupidty are the two most common elements on earth, not necessarily in that order. -- Albert Einstein

  13. #73
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    Thanks
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  14. #74
    Member Array EeyoreCC's Avatar
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    I like the way the OP's instructor stated the idea in very blunt terms to ensure impact. Very Marine-like. And it generated some worthwhile discussion here.

    I realize that this is the CC part fo the forum, but I came to a very similar realization when I discovered open carry. Everything the OP said applies, and then some. I realized my manners and dress have to be impeccable when OCing because if they're not, I'm not just a jerk/dirtball--I'm "that jerk/dirtball with a gun". Rightly or wrongly, the presence of the gun magnifies people's perceptions of you. In most people's minds, quiet, calm, polite, and well-dressed = non-threatening.
    Doghandler and tacman605 like this.
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

  15. #75
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    Re: Don't let your ego get in the way.

    Bringing a gun to a fist fight. Hmmm...

    One of my greatest fears, no doubt, is, through some failure of SA, through failure of "verbal judo", through failure of evasion or lacking the opportunity thereof, an unavoidable situation that would require that I "defend my weapon".

    I meditate on this often so it will not come as a surprise.
    There is a solution but we are not Jedi... not yet.
    Doghandler

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