Gun Permit Laws Eroding

This is a discussion on Gun Permit Laws Eroding within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm new to this group and have enjoyed reading many posts. Just wanted to make a few observations based on experience and basic constitutional premises. ...

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Thread: Gun Permit Laws Eroding

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Gun Permit Laws Eroding

    I'm new to this group and have enjoyed reading many posts.
    Just wanted to make a few observations based on experience and basic constitutional premises.

    I have read many posts concerning denial of gun permits for many different reasons from many different states.
    Here are a few observations and a little advice.

    1) Personally, I would not post specifics of your situation if you plan to appeal a denial. Cyber space is forever. You would be surprised at what the state police fire arms division will use at your appeal which is NOT limited to the official record.

    2) Attorneys don't work for free. Any legal advice found on forums should not be considered accurate. Attorneys = Access which is what we pay for when we hire one.

    Now my rant based on experience:

    Given the current state of political and social atmosphere in this country, denial of a gun permit seems to be the standing order of the day for U.S Citizens.

    If one examines (Black Letter Law) concerning who can or can not carry a weapon, we see there is great latitude given to the local and state agencies in their decision process.
    Obviously felons, domestic abuse charges are clearly stated and knock one out of the running,,as it should be. Beyond this however is where we enter into nebulous reasoning to deny one a permit at the expense of rights granted to U.S citizens.

    Many of you as have I, have taken the time to read the state legal codes regarding precisely what causes a denial; yet many are perplexed as to why they were denied when there seems to be no clear reason or reasons. Any explanations provided by the state are a real stretch if any reason is even given! "Not a proper person" can and is quite vague.

    Gun permit laws need to be re-written; period. (i.e) "Any class A misdemeanor committed within 5 yrs" "Any class B misdemeanor committed within 7 yrs" etc...etc...These are just examples only for clear laws.

    Yes, we all have the right to appeal. The success rate of such appeals is very very small.

    By each state writing clear and concise gun permit laws, the fire arms licensing divisions would find their work load greatly reduced as one would now be aware who qualifies to carry and who does not.

    At this juncture however; local and state authorities may as well throw darts at a balloon in there decision making process.

    The appeals process will 99% of the time follow the recommendation of law enforcement. This is where the inequality begins. A local sheriff etc can deny you for all sorts of NON LEGAL reasons.
    Is it fair? Of course not. Does it happen? Yes! Constantly.

    Lawyers: Lawyers work within the system. They have to get along with as many people as possible within this system. If anyone truly believes attorneys work in your best interest; they need a reality check.


    Look at the stats if we can believe them.
    In 1980, 46% of Americans requested permits. In 2011 that number was at 36%. This is quite telling if the numbers are accurate.

    Is there an answer? Yes!
    Be very very wealthy or politically connected. Any less than this we can expect little if any real protection of our rights.

    Do what you can and then do what you must.

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    In Ohio, during the first quarter of this year, 18,123 CHLs were issued or renewed. 245 were suspended, 54 were revoked, while 263, or 1.5% of all applicants were denied. 1.5% hardly strikes me as evidence of "Given the current state of political and social atmosphere in this country, denial of a gun permit seems to be the standing order of the day for U.S Citizens.".

    Your statement: " Look at the stats if we can believe them. In 1980, 46% of Americans requested permits. In 2011 that number was at 36%. This is quite telling if the numbers are accurate." is gibberish at best.
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    VIP Member Array 1MoreGoodGuy's Avatar
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    If one is denied, there is usually a reason which supports the denial.

    If one lives in an area of the county that requires a person to get a permit from a governing authority to own a firearm, perhaps that person should move to an area of the country which does not require a permit to own a firearm.
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    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    The reality of the "Gun Permit Laws" is that they are not eroding, that they have been or are being strengthened in just about every state in the union over the past decade or so.

    The comment about the current state of political affairs is actually right, because it is a "STATE" issue regarding issuing permits, and has nothing to do with the fed government.
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    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    Have to agree with Mike. It's a poorly-framed argument. The provided "numbers" lead to an inconclusive NO where. Denials are not statistically on the upswing. Sounds like you're mad at lawyers, or a personal permit denial, or both. I don't retain a lawyer to plan my strategy. I retain a lawyer to make sure that my planned strategy is LEGAL. And for the record, IMHO, I can think of very, VERY few circumstances in which being "very, very wealthy or politically connected" is...a liability.
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    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Gun Permit Laws Eroding
    If true what explains the explosion of small light weight carry gun sales in the market? Are manufacturers misinformed?
    The last I heard 39 states now have "Shall Issue" permit laws.
    Eroding??? I don't think so.

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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Look at the stats if we can believe them.
    In 1980, 46% of Americans requested permits. In 2011 that number was at 36%. This is quite telling if the numbers are accurate.
    Why did you include a statement like that? Do you or do you not beleive them?
    Any legal advice found on forums should not be considered accurate.
    Duh

    The following are based on your own experience. uh, (cough) if it is based on your own experience a word to the wise: don't make statments like this implying it is widespread with NO data to stand behind it:
    Given the current state of political and social atmosphere in this country, denial of a gun permit seems to be the standing order of the day for U.S Citizens.
    No evidence and as stated it appears to be going the other way around
    At this juncture however; local and state authorities may as well throw darts at a balloon in there decision making process.
    Again, where are the stats? Where are you getting this info from. If you were denied then that is one person and we would like to know the circumstances behind it.
    Is there an answer? Yes!
    Be very very wealthy or politically connected.
    Possibly true in some very localized area's like NYC. But generally a falsehood.

    IMO there is very little factual information in this post. We all rant but this one has almost no supporting arguements behind it. If the OP knows of specific things I would be interested.

    BTW: Welcom to DC
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    OP, that may be the way of life in Indiana, and seeing as I don't live there, I won't argue otherwise.

    It is not the case for "U.S. Citizens" across the country, many of whom live in "Shall Issue" states where short of a felony conviction or documented mental treatment, the local municipalities and PDs have little or no say so in the matter. Each state varies from the next; there is no constant other than felony convictions and mental judgements.

    As for lawyers, they work for the client, and the "employer" has the right to discharge the "employee" for not performing the perscribed duties.
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    Member Array minimalbrat's Avatar
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    Heck Ohio let me have my licenses and my husband is retired. If a husband being retired and at home ALL the time isn't a reason to keep a lady from having a gun I don't know what is lol
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    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    Given the current state of political and social atmosphere in this country, denial of a gun permit seems to be the standing order of the day for U.S Citizens...At this juncture however; local and state authorities may as well throw darts at a balloon in there decision making process.
    Out of the 50 states, only 10 are "May Issue" meaning they can decide whether or not they want you to have a permit. Some of these issue as if they were a "shall issue" state, while others hardly issue any at all (e.g. Hawaii). The other 40 states are shall issues states. (In most of those states) as long as you pass a background check (No felonies, mentally stable, etc.) you will be issued a permit/license to carry. I've looked through 36 of these 40 states and only one so far states that the sheriff must determine that the applicant is of good character and a "proper person" to be licensed (your home state of Indiana). In other states with similar mention, this determination is specifically stated to be made by the background check. For the rest, as long as you have a clear background check, fill out proper paperwork, and (for some states) pass a training course, you WILL be issued a license/permit to carry. 4 states even allow for carry without a permit by any citizen that can legally possess a firearm.
    It is hardly accurate to say, "denial of a gun permit seems to be the standing order of the day" or, "local and state authorities may as well throw darts at a balloon in there decision making process".



    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    The appeals process will 99% of the time follow the recommendation of law enforcement. This is where the inequality begins. A local sheriff etc can deny you for all sorts of NON LEGAL reasons.
    Is it fair? Of course not. Does it happen? Yes! Constantly.
    I'd really like to see your sources on that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    Lawyers: Lawyers work within the system. They have to get along with as many people as possible within this system. If anyone truly believes attorneys work in your best interest; they need a reality check.
    I'm sure a lot of Gun rights lawyers would love to hear that^.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    Is there an answer? Yes!
    Be very very wealthy or politically connected. Any less than this we can expect little if any real protection of our rights.
    One hardly needs to be wealthy or politically connected to expect protection of their rights. That is quite the statement, again.
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    OP, Do you also believe the sky is falling?
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    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    Welcome to the Forum!
    After reading your post, I would never expect to see my gun permit rights erode here in New Hampshire, or any where else. (I've resided in a MAY ISSUE state Massachusetts for over 30 yrs and never had trouble obtaining a LTC ot License to posess a machinegun in that State and now reside in NH) That MAY happen in Indiana (that's if the population allows it to happen) but I'm not seeing this happen, or about to happen, even in the "May Issue" States any too soon. besides, if it EVER DID happen, well............. let's not go there right now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    I'm new to this group and have enjoyed reading many posts.
    Just wanted to make a few observations based on experience and basic constitutional premises.

    I have read many posts concerning denial of gun permits for many different reasons from many different states.
    Here are a few observations and a little advice.

    1) Personally, I would not post specifics of your situation if you plan to appeal a denial. Cyber space is forever. You would be surprised at what the state police fire arms division will use at your appeal which is NOT limited to the official record.

    2) Attorneys don't work for free. Any legal advice found on forums should not be considered accurate. Attorneys = Access which is what we pay for when we hire one.

    Now my rant based on experience:

    Given the current state of political and social atmosphere in this country, denial of a gun permit seems to be the standing order of the day for U.S Citizens.

    If one examines (Black Letter Law) concerning who can or can not carry a weapon, we see there is great latitude given to the local and state agencies in their decision process.
    Obviously felons, domestic abuse charges are clearly stated and knock one out of the running,,as it should be. Beyond this however is where we enter into nebulous reasoning to deny one a permit at the expense of rights granted to U.S citizens.

    Many of you as have I, have taken the time to read the state legal codes regarding precisely what causes a denial; yet many are perplexed as to why they were denied when there seems to be no clear reason or reasons. Any explanations provided by the state are a real stretch if any reason is even given! "Not a proper person" can and is quite vague.

    Gun permit laws need to be re-written; period. (i.e) "Any class A misdemeanor committed within 5 yrs" "Any class B misdemeanor committed within 7 yrs" etc...etc...These are just examples only for clear laws.

    Yes, we all have the right to appeal. The success rate of such appeals is very very small.

    By each state writing clear and concise gun permit laws, the fire arms licensing divisions would find their work load greatly reduced as one would now be aware who qualifies to carry and who does not.

    At this juncture however; local and state authorities may as well throw darts at a balloon in there decision making process.

    The appeals process will 99% of the time follow the recommendation of law enforcement. This is where the inequality begins. A local sheriff etc can deny you for all sorts of NON LEGAL reasons.
    Is it fair? Of course not. Does it happen? Yes! Constantly.

    Lawyers: Lawyers work within the system. They have to get along with as many people as possible within this system. If anyone truly believes attorneys work in your best interest; they need a reality check.


    Look at the stats if we can believe them.
    In 1980, 46% of Americans requested permits. In 2011 that number was at 36%. This is quite telling if the numbers are accurate.

    Is there an answer? Yes!
    Be very very wealthy or politically connected. Any less than this we can expect little if any real protection of our rights.

    Do what you can and then do what you must.
    I have heard of many states starting to place more and more restrictions on licenses such as work purposes and target only.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCDan View Post
    I have heard of many states starting to place more and more restrictions on licenses such as work purposes and target only.
    Source citations?
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    The fact of the matter is, I'd like to see most gun laws erode away completely as most place restrictions on law-abiding citizens.
    pir8fan and msgt/ret like this.
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