(MSNBC) Should Teachers carry guns - Page 4

(MSNBC) Should Teachers carry guns

This is a discussion on (MSNBC) Should Teachers carry guns within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It could be that you're right about the super criminals. But in the countries that have manditory training has that happened? To be sure we ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array CapnBald's Avatar
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    It could be that you're right about the super criminals. But in the countries that have manditory training has that happened? To be sure we are always going to have people that break the law, but I don't think I've heard of any big outbreaks of crime in the countries that have it,


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    I just don't think that the countries that have mandatory military training/service were in the state of moral and social decline that our youth are in at this point. Hell, did I say "our youth"?! Was Kenneth Lay "young"? Were that guy from Adelphia and his sons young?

    We are living in an age where morals are in the toilet because people are wholly given over to the idea of obtaining wealth and power (and expensive sneakers and over-loud stereos and DVD players in the dashboard)...

    Those countries with mandatory military service were doing it well before this kind of decline began. It is perhaps the reason why the decline is happening at a much slower pace in those countries.

  3. #48
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    Agreed, and I fully endorse the idea of armed teachers, administrators, and other CCWers in schools, but we need to remember one big thing, and that is, parents and other concerned parties are going to want some sort of assurances that the armed adults have received training regarding not letting possibly unattended guns fall into the hands of students.

    Some people carry in day planners, briefcases, shoulder satchels, purses, etc. This is perfectly legitimate, as we all know, for everyday public carry -- as long as the carrier is attentive. Put the same situation into a school, and a left-behind purse suddenly provides a gun to a student. (Now, unless you believe that guns turn people bad, the likelihood would be that a GOOD KID finds it and does the right thing with it. But the odds are skewed by the notion that some BAD KIDS would be on the lookout to pilfer a teacher's accessory just on the hope they'll get a gun out of the deal.)

    So wouldn't this necessitate a sort of administratively enforced standard for manner of carry?
    In my opinion, any CCW'er who leaves their weapon unattended in a public location (concealed or not) should smack themselves. I have carried in a day planner before, and that thing never left my side. Naturally, I favor on-body carry, as do most other CCW'ers I know, but if someone did utilize off-body carry in a school, I should certainly hope none of them would be careless enough to leave the weapon and walk off. That kind of inattention is dangerous no matter where you are.

    As for special training, every CCW'er is taught that he or she is solely responsible for their own weapon, and extra attention must be payed to an off-body carry weapon. This is as basic as being sure of both your target and your backdrop.

    I do think that school personnel should be encouraged to carry on-body, but not required to. How would that be enforced anyway?

  4. #49
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    I have no idea how ANY of this would be enforced. I guess that's part of the problem we face with getting it implemented.

    We could address NONE of these valid questions, and just say, "Anyone with a CWL may carry in a school just like in the grocery store," and see how it goes... but the first time a kid got hold of a teacher's handgun, that would be the end of it.

  5. #50
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    I have no idea how ANY of this would be enforced. I guess that's part of the problem we face with getting it implemented.

    We could address NONE of these valid questions, and just say, "Anyone with a CWL may carry in a school just like in the grocery store," and see how it goes... but the first time a kid got hold of a teacher's handgun, that would be the end of it.
    I think your signature deals pretty well with that. No reason for them to know about it, especially if the owner of the weapon is attentive and careful with it, which ALL CCW holders should be.

  6. #51
    Member Array Celtic Pride's Avatar
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    Oh but what an issue. I dont think it will pass. If it does, stand by for the trouble.
    1st - Most teachers (not all) lean to the left, and do not wish to carry a firearm, depite some members of this forums wishful thinking.

    2nd - If male police officers with superior handgun retention training are frequently disarmed, how much more likely is it that a teacher with less retention training, will be disarmed by a student. High school kids are generally bigger, stronger, faster and meaner than your average teacher. Especially the kids you have to worry about. I've read posts here where some members tend to think cops are kinda like ill trained bafoon types who cant shoot to save their lives. That may be true in some cases, but wait till you see the "armed teachers" LOL
    If its wasnt so deadly serious it would be amusing.

    Above are two practical reasons to be very skeptical. But the following political reason is what will eventually kill it if it passes.

    The local school boards do not want teachers with guns. They want Cops at the schools..... heres why. As soon as the first school board employee (teacher) pulls that weapon and accidentally kills a student..... the school board is screwed. It doesnt matter if the teacher was trying to do the right thing or not. One bad shooting and its over. That teacher wont make enough money in their career to finish paying off that law suit, not to mention the school district wont be able to buy text books for 20 years.
    The school board also pays insurance (see above). How much ya think thats going to go up knowing that every teacher who thinks it will be cool to have a gun can now pack one at school. Many high schools in major cities are just day time juvenile holding facilities anyway.

    There is a major issue in schools today, but you have to support enough law enforcement to have an officer or two in each school. You cant place this burden on the school system. Our civil courts wont stand for it. Just my $.02

  7. #52
    Member Array farmerj's Avatar
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    http://www.twincitiescarry.com/forum...840&highlight=

    Link to the original posting about the commentary to the Chanhassen Villager.

    I still see this as being nothing more than a band-aid.

    When will the system take away the power from the kids and give it to the parents/teachers.

    I quite driving school bus because I got a written reprimand for having an assistant principal remove a kids from my bus for smoking on it. In front of both of us.

    I have listened to 1st graders walk into class on the first day of school saying that if you touch them you will go to jail because he made his daddy go to jail.

    And when are parent going to stop letting our kids watch the crud that is on TV? We had regular problems with our daughter. I could not figure it out. Until I read an article about Elmo. I took away the elmo videos, tv and stuffed animals and the behavior improved. I thought it was pretty innocent until you look at the fact he is about as self-centered and whinny as they come.

    And we as parents allow this...

    What about having our kids stand up and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school? Or sing God Bless America? Or even the National Anthem once a week?

    It's not about a Catholic God, or Lutheran God or the Mulsim God. But God of your belief. Yet as a majority, we have allowed the minorty to ruin our schools.

    What happened to the days of us being able to bring our guns with to school so that when school was over, we went hunting. What happened to the days that if two kids had issues, they went and "discussed" it after school and became friends.
    Team WTFDTSG?

    ***** happens, it becomes the past. Live with it, learn from it and get on with it.

  8. #53
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    You know what I think is interesting about all this? All the same arguments - every single one - that have been raised against the public in general being able to arm themselves are being applied to schools as though they are new special situations that must be considered from the ground up.

    Think back to the scare tactics used to try to kick the legs out from under CCW laws in your favorite state. "People will shoot each other over every little disagreement! If police officers get disarmed so easily, civilians will be walking gun stores for criminals! People will leave their guns unattended and a criminal or a child will find it and go on a shooting spree! Nobody but crazy rednecks really want to carry a gun anyway! Accidental shootings will be an everyday occurance! Lawsuits will be flung around like candy from a pinata! Leave the police work to the police!" and etc.

    Sound familiar? I've heard each one of those as an argument against allowing CCW in schools, yet these predictions have not come true when considering CCW in other locations. You can argue a greater density of minors in school changes the situation, but it really doesn't. The same rules and responsibilities apply to carrying anywhere, even in a school.

    CCW holders are not "anyone who thinks it's cool to have a gun." We are one of the most level-headed, law-abiding, up-standing, and responsible groups of people you could ever find. The bottom line is that state's CCW programs are the testing ground that disproves all of these hair-raising doomsday scenarios. They just don't happen. And there's no reason to suggest that schools would be any different than the rest of the country when it comes to armed adults acting responsibly.

    As for lawsuits, bad shoots are a danger, yes. But compare the impact of a bad shooting to a massacre in an unarmed school. Then look at the frequency of actual unjustified shootings by a CCW holder vs the frequency of armed attacks on schools. The conclusion seems pretty clear to me.

  9. #54
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    I believe that if there is not a resource officer, the principle and asst principle should have a gun available, maybe the athletic dir.

  10. #55
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    The question is "Should teachers carry guns?"

    I believe that the question is a little broad and should be broken down as follows:

    Part One: Should teachers be prohibited from carrying guns at school?

    My answer: No. Restrictions that prohibit carrying firearms that are based solely on the physical relationship of a person to a school should be lifted. First, they lack any sort of rational basis to allow a restriction of my rights. Second, our purpose should be, first and foremost, to deter would-be criminals from preying on our schools. That can be accomplished by simply removing silly, proximity-based prohibitions; criminals would no longer be ASSURED that no one in the school is armed.

    Part Two: Should teachers be required to carry guns at school?
    My Answer: No. One must be of a certain mindset and possess a minimum threshold of responsibility in order to safely and effectively carry a firearm. The decision should be made voluntarily and on an individual basis by each teacher.

    Part Three: Under what circumstance (with what requirements) should teachers be allowed to carry at school?
    My answer: Under whatever requirements the parents of the students call for.

    Now, that last one may raise some eyebrows. So, here's why I hold that opinion:

    This is a free country, and one should have the option to dictate requirements for anyone who has his children in their care. That includes whether or not that caregiver should go armed. This is different from non-fiduciary interactions, such as whether someone should be allowed to carry in the mall around my kids. In my opinion as a parent, I have the right to set requirements whatever requirements I want for those will have my children in their care. If I don't like the school's requirements, I can send my kids elsewhere. If the teacher doesn't like it, he can do the same.

    Summary: In my opinion, teacher's should not be prohibited from carrying at school, provided they comply with whatever requirements are imposed by the parents of the children in their care.

    And no, the same should not apply to me when I visit the school - the school has no right to tell me where I can and can't carry. The children at the school are not in my care, so my right should not be restricted by location alone. Granted, the law says otherwise - I'm just talking about what should be the case.

    Best,
    Jon
    "You may not know it, but there's things that gnaw at a man worse than dyin'."

    Charles Travis Postlewaite, 1882

  11. #56
    Member Array Hobbes's Avatar
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    how is a teacher going to be disarmed if the weapon is concealed? How often are "regular" CCWs disarmed?

  12. #57
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJon View Post
    Summary: In my opinion, teacher's should not be prohibited from carrying at school, provided they comply with whatever requirements are imposed by the parents of the children in their care.
    That's very open-ended. What's to prevent a de facto disarming, due to a few vocal anti's on the school board?

    I'm not proposing that anyone be forced to send their kids to a school where they have problems with the teachers (be it that the teachers carry or whatever), but the parents don't have the right to tell the teacher "you can't carry around my kid" any more than they can say "you can't drive that gas-guzzling SUV around my kid." If the parents have problems with the teacher that cannot be reasonably discussed and relieved, they need to find a different school or teach their kids themselves. It's up to the parent to adjust, not the teacher (within reason).

  13. #58
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    What about having our kids stand up and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school? Or sing God Bless America? Or even the National Anthem once a week?
    The problem I have with this is that in a "free country," this can be said to amount to state-mandated indoctrination.

    Requiring that someone swear allegiance? What if Bush started demanding that people swear allegiance to him, or to the Republican party? Why would that be different?

    I agree that it is a noble goal that the people of American should want to recite the pledge and/or the national anthem, but I think that requiring it is no more sensible than requiring "community volunteerism" of school students as a prerequisite to graduation. That kind of thing is clearly oxymoronic.

    If you require people to state their allegiance via a pledge or oath, how would you know who really means it and who does not, if they're all saying it?

  14. #59
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes View Post
    how is a teacher going to be disarmed if the weapon is concealed? How often are "regular" CCWs disarmed?

    Great question/point.

    I have never seen a statistic about how often CCWs are disarmed -- not when the gun is still holstered and concealed, and not even when we're talking about them drawing for some purpose.

    The people saying that kids will get hold of the (randomly armed) teacher's gun are the same fools who were saying that blood was going to run in the streets because of CCWers having shootouts over parking spaces.

  15. #60
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Part Three: Under what circumstance (with what requirements) should teachers be allowed to carry at school?
    My answer: Under whatever requirements the parents of the students call for.

    Now, that last one may raise some eyebrows. So, here's why I hold that opinion:

    This is a free country, and one should have the option to dictate requirements for anyone who has his children in their care. That includes whether or not that caregiver should go armed.

    Then it's not "free" for the person being dictated to, now is it?

    I suppose that it may be up to the school district, or the board or whatever. But are you saying that for any given class that any given parent's kid is in, that parent should have veto power over the teacher's right to CCW? How could that possibly work?

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