(MSNBC) Should Teachers carry guns

This is a discussion on (MSNBC) Should Teachers carry guns within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; People (parents) do not have the right to insist thier kids are with unarmed people (short of pulling thier kids out of school that is) ...

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 77

Thread: (MSNBC) Should Teachers carry guns

  1. #61
    Member Array Hobbes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Centralia, VA
    Posts
    384
    People (parents) do not have the right to insist thier kids are with unarmed people (short of pulling thier kids out of school that is)
    That would be like me walking around with a sign that says "please, no guns around my kids" and expect CCWers to listen to me...

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #62
    Member Array Celtic Pride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    50
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes View Post
    how is a teacher going to be disarmed if the weapon is concealed?
    Are you serious?

    The kids are with the teachers all day everyday. They WILL find out who is armed. With this knowledge, you cant see how a 5'00'' 110 lbs teacher could be disarmed by a 6'00" 210 lbs high school kid if he wanted that weapon?

  4. #63
    Senior Member Array palmgopher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    tennessee
    Posts
    722
    you say that but there are many people that work around people everyday and carry everyday and noone has found out they are carrying a gun.....happens all the time. as for the gun.....why take the time to wrestle on away from someone when you can bring your own. im not saying it couldnt happen....im just saying the likelyhood of them trying to take the time to wrestle one away as opposed to just shooting the one teacher with the gun...

  5. #64
    Member Array Hobbes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Centralia, VA
    Posts
    384
    Yeah I'm serious, it's not that hard to keep it concealed.

  6. #65
    Member Array steve63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    oklahoma
    Posts
    166
    I don't think they need a new law arming teachers. I think they need to lift the old law of not carrying on school grounds. Their are alot of teachers that carry and train just as hard as other people. If they could be alllowed to carry on school grounds while at work I bet you would find that our schools would be better protected.

  7. #66
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Slidell, LA
    Posts
    1,688
    Quote Originally Posted by palmgopher View Post
    you say that but there are many people that work around people everyday and carry everyday and noone has found out they are carrying a gun.....happens all the time. as for the gun.....why take the time to wrestle on away from someone when you can bring your own. im not saying it couldnt happen....im just saying the likelyhood of them trying to take the time to wrestle one away as opposed to just shooting the one teacher with the gun...
    Absolutely. I've spotted one or two guys who I thought might be carrying, but then I've known others who I know carry, and I would've never spotted it, even with daily interaction.

  8. #67
    Member Array talon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    84
    As a teacher, my only issue with law abiding school employees being armed is weapons retention. School hallways are not what they use to be. My experiences are that they are a lot more crowded and teachers do have to stop physical confrontations between students. Even our police officers are not the best at dealing with these situations. I mean you don't want to mace the hallway, but at the same time it can be a nightmare for retaining that sidearm in a huge scuffle. The last thing you would want would be a firearm on the floor in the middle of a bunch of upset and immature kids.
    The world is a dangerous place to live... not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. - Albert Einstein

  9. #68
    Member
    Array BigJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Montgomery, AL
    Posts
    313
    Quote Originally Posted by BigJon
    Summary: In my opinion, teachers should not be prohibited from carrying at school, provided they comply with whatever requirements are imposed by the parents of the children in their care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob The Great
    That's very open-ended.
    Yes. That’s the way it should be – with the parties able to contract under whatever terms they desire. That’s capitalism. That’s freedom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob The Great
    What's to prevent a de facto disarming, due to a few vocal anti's on the school board?
    What’s to prevent it? You and the teachers are. Thankfully we live in a country where we are free to vote the suckers out of office and work where we want. You and similarly minded teachers and parents are also free to form a private school. You are even free to home-school your child. Your question incorrectly presumes that you and the teachers are held prisoner by your government (the school board).

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJon
    “Under what circumstance (with what requirements) should teachers be allowed to carry at school? My answer: Under whatever requirements the parents of the students call for. Now, that last one may raise some eyebrows. So, here's why I hold that opinion: This is a free country, and one should have the option to dictate requirements for anyone who has his children in their care.”
    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey
    Then it's not "free" for the person being dictated to, now is it?
    Sure it's "free"! You are free to contract for the services you want under the terms you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey
    Are you saying that for any given class that any given parent's kid is in, that parent should have veto power over the teacher's right to CCW? How could that possibly work?
    I said nothing about vetoing rights. I said just the opposite - that you and the teachers are FREE TO EXERCISE you rights- specifically, your right to contract for the custody of your children under whatever terms you both agree to. If you can't agree, then you are free not to enter into the custody arrangement. If you are going to put your child in the custody of someone else, do you not want to set the terms of that custody?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes
    People (parents) do not have the right to insist their kids are with unarmed people …
    What do you mean by "unarmed people"? If you mean general society, then I agree. If you mean teachers who will have custody of my kids, then I don't agree, and I'd ask you, who gave someone else the right to tell me who to leave my children with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob The Great
    … the parents don't have the right to tell the teacher "you can't carry around my kid any more than they can say "you can't drive that gas-guzzling SUV around my kid."
    If you have hired the SUV driver to keep custody of your children, you can do so under whatever terms you want, or you can not hire him. Great living in a free country, isn’t it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes
    People (parents) do not have the right to insist their kids are with unarmed people That would be like me walking around with a sign that says "please, no guns around my kids" and expect CCWers to listen to me...
    No, it’s applies and oranges. I agree that you have no right to tell the man on the street whether or not he can carry. That’s because he has inalienable rights over which you have no say. However, if you and he have a contractual relationship under which he has voluntarily agreed not to exercise certain rights when around your children and, in return, he gets paid for the work you hired him to do, then I see no problem. If you hire someone to keep custody of your kids, you get to set the requirements of that custody. At least, I hope you would. I dang sure would set out my requirements for anyone who’d be hired to keep custody of my own kids.

    So, in closing (aren't you glad?) ...

    The glitch y'all are running into is confusing violating a person's rights under the 2nd Amendment with that person voluntarily agreeing not to exercise those rights in return for something, in this case a salary (again, if that's what the parent's want.)

    Best,
    Jon
    "You may not know it, but there's things that gnaw at a man worse than dyin'."

    Charles Travis Postlewaite, 1882

  10. #69
    Member Array Hobbes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Centralia, VA
    Posts
    384
    Parents do not have the right to disarm anyone, including those who have custody of thier kids. If they don't like the 2nd A then they can homeschool, that's thier right.

    School boards or government don't have the right to disarm anybody either, again the 2nd A is supposed to prevent this (yeah, they do it anyways but it's unconstitutional IMO) Anything 2nd A related shouldn't be voted on- it's non negotiable.

  11. #70
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Slidell, LA
    Posts
    1,688
    Quote Originally Posted by BigJon View Post
    If you have hired the SUV driver to keep custody of your children, you can do so under whatever terms you want, or you can not hire him. Great living in a free country, isn’t it?

    ...However, if you and he have a contractual relationship under which he has voluntarily agreed not to exercise certain rights when around your children and, in return, he gets paid for the work you hired him to do, then I see no problem. If you hire someone to keep custody of your kids, you get to set the requirements of that custody. At least, I hope you would. I dang sure would set out my requirements for anyone who’d be hired to keep custody of my own kids.

    ...The glitch y'all are running into is confusing violating a person's rights under the 2nd Amendment with that person voluntarily agreeing not to exercise those rights in return for something, in this case a salary (again, if that's what the parent's want.)
    If we were talking about a purely contractual and individual agreement (like a personal tutor), then I would agree with you. However, a public institution, or even a private school, is a little different. Contracts in this case are not custom written between a teacher and a parent, and the parent generally has no direct control over the employment of any given educator.

    Now, the parents do indeed have the right to take their kids somewhere else if they don't like something about the school/teacher. However, they do not have the right to force the teachers to make lifestyle changes that have nothing to do with their education skills. For example, driving an SUV or carrying a handgun.

    It's up to the parent to make that decision and find somewhere else to take their kids, not up to the teacher to change if he/she wants to keep their job. If enough people in the community feel the same way, then the school will feel the effects; capitalism at work, like you say. But the burden to make changes is on the parents, not the teachers.

    Also, consider that public schools are not directly controlled by the parents of the entire student body. The school board may or may not accurately represent the desires of a majority of parents or an individual parent, on a given issue. And what about conflicting parental demands? How can a teacher comply with everyone's veiws at once?

    Like I said before, with a private one-on-one tutor, sure... make all the contractual stipulations you want. A public or private school teacher who does not work directly for you is different. And that level of control is a sacrifice you can choose to make by sending your kids to be educated by someone else, or not. If not, Homeschool them.

  12. #71
    Member
    Array BigJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Montgomery, AL
    Posts
    313
    You know, it occurs to me that we may be getting close to violating the forum’s “no political discussions” rule (I have a mental picture of the moderators … they are focused on the front sight, beyond which this thread looks fuzzy!) So, I’ll be brief.

    To Hobbes and Bob the Great, I think we’re all in agreement (no kidding). The trick, I think, is to recognize a few things concerning these issues and our discussions of them:

    First, there are four “players” involved: parents, teachers, the government (school board) and members of society that have no involvement in the various relationships among the other three.

    Second, certain terms we’ve all been using in this thread (me included) can carry different connotations depending on which of the four relationships we’re talking about at a given moment. Examples include dictate, veto power, free, unarmed, disarm, etc. Some are correct as used in some contexts and not in others.

    The rub I think we all see (correct me if I’m wrong) is that the school board (government) should not be allowed to violate our 2nd Amendment rights – to TELL us – without our agreement - when and where we can carry, and when and where we can’t.

    The problem when it comes to the 2nd Amendment versus public schools debate, I think, was precisely nailed by both Hobbes and Bob the Great when they said …

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes
    School boards or governments don't have the right to [force anyone to give up right to carry], again the 2nd A is supposed to prevent this (yeah, they do it anyways but it's unconstitutional IMO) Anything 2nd A related shouldn't be voted on- it's non negotiable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob The Great
    Also, consider that public schools are not directly controlled by the parents of the entire student body. The school board may or may not accurately represent the desires of a majority of parents or an individual parent, on a given issue.
    As Hobbes and Bob point out, the government (school board) overreaches when it forces teachers not to carry. In a perfect world, we could stop that with our vote, but in real, practical terms, we can’t. Bob hit the nail on the head when he said …

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob The Great
    Also, consider that public schools are not directly controlled by the parents of the entire student body. The school board may or may not accurately represent the desires of a majority of parents or an individual parent, on a given issue.
    And, that’s the problem. I think we all agree (tell me if I’m putting words in your mouths that I shouldn’t) that the school board (government) is Constitutionally prohibited from forcing anyone to give up his 2nd Am rights. However, the government still does it and tries to do more of it every day, and in many ways, not just those concerning schools (e.g.: airports, government buildings, demonstrations, where restraining orders have been issued in domestic-relations cases, ex-felons not being allowed to carry, etc.)

    So when it comes to the right of teachers – or parents too for that matter – to carry in schools, the practical reality is as Bob said – it’s our decision as parents to take what the school board gives us, go elsewhere, or home school.

    Thanks for such a thought-provoking, entertaining and gentlemanly discussion.

    Best,
    Jon
    Last edited by BigJon; October 15th, 2006 at 11:43 AM.
    "You may not know it, but there's things that gnaw at a man worse than dyin'."

    Charles Travis Postlewaite, 1882

  13. #72
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Slidell, LA
    Posts
    1,688
    All in good faith, Jon.

    You're probably right that we're all talking about the same thing here. And I have to say, I am in 100% total agreement with your last post. Discussion ended, as far as I'm concerned.

    .
    .
    .
    (and good point about the mods)

  14. #73
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Slidell, LA
    Posts
    1,688
    btw, totally off-topic, but has anyone else noticed that the "more smilies" page goes bonkers if you scroll down too far in IE?

  15. #74
    Member
    Array BigJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Montgomery, AL
    Posts
    313
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob The Great View Post
    btw, totally off-topic, but has anyone else noticed that the "more smilies" page goes bonkers if you scroll down too far in IE?
    Yes! That has happed to me before too! Not recently though.
    "You may not know it, but there's things that gnaw at a man worse than dyin'."

    Charles Travis Postlewaite, 1882

  16. #75
    Member Array Hobbes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Centralia, VA
    Posts
    384
    I agree with what you said Jon. (dancing bananas; good for every occasion)

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. MSNBC Poll: College Carry
    By thinkat in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 128
    Last Post: November 25th, 2008, 07:57 PM
  2. Houston,Tx Teachers can carry?
    By mr.stuart in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: August 15th, 2008, 06:58 PM
  3. Teachers carrying guns
    By cw38305 in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: August 15th, 2008, 04:41 PM
  4. Hit this poll! Should teachers be allowed to carry guns
    By doejohn in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: October 13th, 2007, 08:40 PM
  5. MSNBC video on arming teachers
    By paramedic70002 in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: October 12th, 2006, 10:48 AM

Search tags for this page

al.com teachers right to conceal carry

,
countries where teachers carry guns
,

do israeli teachers carry guns

,
gun control should teacher carry guns to class
,
polling educators of teachers carry firearms
,
poor training for teachers, carry guns
,
private school can teacher carry gun
,
school teachers in israel and thailand now carry concealed handguns on the job
,
second opinion should teachers carry guns october 5, 2006
,
should teachers be able carry guns in school nbc
,
teachers can carry guns
,
thailand teachers carry guns
Click on a term to search for related topics.