November 18th, 2012 07:39 PM
Last Christmas Eve there was a gang shooting in the parking lot and entrance of our mall. Over 100 rounds fired
Signs carry no weigh in Florida, you may be asked to leave for any reason
Consealed is consealed
My safety is more important to me than the wishes of the cooperation or person that owns our local mall (or any other store).
Police: Assault Rifle Used in Florida Mall Shooting, One Man Dead | Video | TheBlaze.com
A word to the wise isn't necessary, save it for the stupid
November 18th, 2012 09:00 PM
Southcenter Mall has a bad reputation for crime to begin with. I dont go there, but there are malls closer to my house anyway.
As someone said...why punish all the business owners because of a mall policy? True, they did sign a lease agreeing to it but then leave it up to them to enforce it if they, somehow, see a concealed weapon.
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The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)
November 20th, 2012 04:36 PM
Signage or not, it is legal to cc at Southcenter. I have, and always will carry whenever I go there. If I'm made and asked to leave, then I will. If you conceal well you have nothing to worry about.
November 20th, 2012 08:43 PM
Just for grins I sent an email to the Southcenter customer service. Took a couple days for them to respond, but here's the exchange:
From: Southcenter <Southcenter@us.westfield.com>
Date: November 20, 2012, 9:58:35 AM PST
Subject: RE: Speak Up: Customer Feedback
As per our Westfield Code of Conduct posted at our mall entries, "The following are not permitted on Center property: ... Possession of any items that could be used as a weapon, including but not limited to: firearms, explosives..."
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 9:43 PMw
Subject: Speak Up: Customer Feedback
Are firearms expressly prohibited on Mall property...and if so, is there obvious signage to that effect at entrances?
November 21st, 2012 12:34 AM
Thanks for that exchange between you and the Westfield folks.
I assume that, since you did not print it, there was no mention of their signage quoting or referring to the Revised Code of Washington statutes? According to Washington law, I believe a business can post any sign about firearms but, unless it references or quotes the applicable section of the RCW, it amounts to a simple request and does not have weight of law.
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November 21st, 2012 01:10 AM
Going to the southcenter mall carry or not carry
This is something I don't understand. In Arizona, handgunlaw.us States that signs have the force of law, but they also state that violating a sign simply results in a charge of criminal trespass. Nothing more. This is basically what you're saying here as well in relation to states where the signs don't have the force of law.
Originally Posted by ccw9mm
What exactly does this "force of law" term actually mean? Does it mean that you will be charged with criminal trespass if you carry into such a location? Or does the owner of such an establishment have to ask you to leave before such a charge is brought?
This is very confusing to me.
November 21st, 2012 01:13 AM
A quote from US Carry .....
What places are off-limits when carrying a concealed weapon in Washington?
(a) The restricted access areas of a jail, or of a law enforcement facility, or any place used for the confinement of a person (i) arrested for, charged with, or convicted of an offense, (ii) held for extradition or as a material witness, or (iii) otherwise confined pursuant to an order of a court, except an order under chapter 13.32A or 13.34 RCW. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress or ingress open to the general public;
(b) Those areas in any building which are used in connection with court proceedings, including courtrooms, jury rooms, judge’s chambers, offices and areas used to conduct court business, waiting areas, and corridors adjacent to areas used in connection with court proceedings. The restricted areas do not include common areas of ingress and egress to the building that is used in connection with court proceedings, when it is possible to protect court areas without restricting ingress and egress to the building. The restricted areas shall be the minimum necessary to fulfill the objective of this subsection (1)(b).
In addition, the local legislative authority shall provide either a stationary locked box sufficient in size for pistols and key to a weapon owner for weapon storage, or shall designate an official to receive weapons for safekeeping, during the owner’s visit to restricted areas of the building. The locked box or designated official shall be located within the same building used in connection with court proceedings. The local legislative authority shall be liable for any negligence causing damage to or loss of a weapon either placed in a locked box or left with an official during the owner’s visit to restricted areas of the building.
The local judicial authority shall designate and clearly mark those areas where weapons are prohibited, and shall post notices at each entrance to the building of the prohibition against weapons in the restricted areas;
(c) The restricted access areas of a public mental health facility certified by the department of social and health services for inpatient hospital care and state institutions for the care of the mentally ill, excluding those facilities solely for evaluation and treatment. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress and ingress open to the general public;
EXCEPTION: this section does not apply to any administrator or employee of the facility or to any person who, upon entering the place or facility, directly and promptly proceeds to the administrator of the facility or the administrator’s designee and obtains written permission to possess the firearm while on the premises.
(d) That portion of an establishment classified by the state liquor control board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age; or
EXCEPTIONS: proprietor of the premises or his or her employees while engaged in their employment.
(e) The restricted access areas of a commercial service airport designated in the airport security plan approved by the federal transportation security administration, including passenger screening checkpoints at or beyond the point at which a passenger initiates the screening process. These areas do not include airport drives, general parking areas and walkways, and shops and areas of the terminal that are outside the screening checkpoints and that are normally open to unscreened passengers or visitors to the airport. Any restricted access area shall be clearly indicated by prominent signs indicating that firearms and other weapons are prohibited in the area.
(2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:
(b) Restricting the possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center, operated by a city, town, county, or other municipality, except that such restrictions shall not apply to:
(i) Any pistol in the possession of a person licensed under RCW 9.41.070 or exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060; or
(5) The perimeter of the premises of any specific location covered by subsection (1) of this section shall be posted at reasonable intervals to alert the public as to the existence of any law restricting the possession of firearms on the premises.
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November 24th, 2012 01:59 AM
Going to the southcenter mall carry or not carry
The difference is in some states it is illegal to ignore the signs. If you are caught you likely will be charged because you are breaking the law.
Originally Posted by Bardo
In WA, signs posted by property owners basically just mean "we don't want you". Sort of like "no shoes, no service". If you are caught you have not broken the law and the only think they can do is ask you to leave. Only if they ask you to leave and you do not comply are you guilty of a crime -- tresspass. Keep in mind the property owner has the right to ask whomever they wish to leave for most any reason. If they don't like your tee shirt, whatever. If asked, you must leave or you are tresspassing.
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. :-)
Last edited by bzdog; November 24th, 2012 at 02:52 PM.
December 15th, 2012 01:56 AM
I was there when the Tacoma shooting happed. It was like my first week here in WA. All my Army buddies carry at the mall. I was always the out cast for not ever going to get my CPL till now that is. I know one time we were sitting at the food court and i guess a friend of mine was sticking out. An older man just tapped him looked at his waist band and nodded. Lakewood aka lakehood and Tacoma aint the best wink. Seattle is 50/50.
December 15th, 2012 02:05 AM
Re: Going to the southcenter mall carry or not carry
I try to avoid the mall and shop online but sometimes going there is unavoidable. I remeber walking in there once earlier this year and seeing a ton of security guards running through one of the doors. At first I thought it might have been a medical emergency but soon came to realise that there was a group of 20 guys fighting out side of Sears. I promptly left the mall at this point, before things escalated.
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December 15th, 2012 02:12 AM
RE the Washington question - I'd carry as usual. If for some incredibly stupid reason you drop your gun and it goes skidding across the polished floor and 300 people see it. I'd say I didn't see the sign, and leave if asked. Better to ask forgiveness than permission.
As for the Arizona question. I also live in AZ. In AZ a sign does carry force of law and you can lose your CCW if you refuse to comply when informed.
However it is conceivable that you didn't see it. Many businesses have a small sign in the corner of a window where it's easy to miss. In that case, and in general you are only in trouble if you make trouble. If you just apologize and say you didn't see the sign and leave if asked it is unlikely anyone is going to push the issue, since they would have to bring charges, perhaps provide video tape and go to court multiple times, etc. Why would anyone bother unless you are a jerk about leaving.
And if you are CCW, nobody should know you have a gun anyway. Most of these signs are for Kalipornika wacko's who come to AZ to experience their open carry rights. That scares customers, especially in the big city.
December 15th, 2012 02:17 AM
well that would be up to you. If u have a cpl then conceal your firearm and go on about your business.
Originally Posted by Soccerfly
December 15th, 2012 03:38 AM
I've carried there plenty of times. If for some reason a mall employee were to see your gun, they could ask you to leave. As long as you do, there is no problem.
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