CCP Denied? Don't Give Up

CCP Denied? Don't Give Up

This is a discussion on CCP Denied? Don't Give Up within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hopefully my experience will encourage others who have been denied a LTC for one reason or another to NOT give up. As I am not ...

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Thread: CCP Denied? Don't Give Up

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    CCP Denied? Don't Give Up

    Hopefully my experience will encourage others who have been denied a LTC for one reason or another to NOT give up.

    As I am not a professional writer, and brevity will not do justice to this story, I apologize in advance if the reading gets dry; but facts are important.

    I hesitated posting this, but after some thought it seemed a good idea as well as the fact that my LTC issues are now fully resolved with a CCP now in my hand.

    Photos attached will provide some level of credibility as some I realize don't believe anything they might read in posts.
    I blacked out my identity and other officials involved in this case.

    Here is the story of my denial and eventual victory at my appeal... and what I learned:

    I did the normal steps in attaining a LTC here in Indiana.
    The process was supposed to only take maybe one to two weeks to receive the license since I opted for electronic finger printing. (Extra cost)

    Thirty days later I was notified via normal mail service my application had been denied for (3) reasons. (See attached photo)

    If the photo is not large enough, here were the reasons.

    1) "Does not have a conviction for resisting law enforcement... IC 35-44-3-3

    2) "Does not make a false statement..." IC 35-47-1-7

    3) "...disapproved by your local police authority..."


    Seems the chances of getting a LTC after all that is pretty bleak?
    I wonder how many people would throw up their hands and quit?

    What I learned so far:


    1) Applications can get (Flagged) automatically w/o human intervention.
    2) Most lawyers will appeal on your behalf if you can afford it. I was quoted $2,500
    3) Legal representation is usually not needed if you can PROVE errors in the reasons for denial.
    4) The process of the appeal will be lengthy. From appeal to LTC issue was 6 months! Primarily due to application backlogs in my state.

    WHY I APPEALED:

    1) The resisting law enforcement conviction was over (30) years old. Indiana law specifically states the conviction must be within (5) years of license application.

    2) False statement was a innocent omission on my part. It was a (15) yr old non-violent misdemeanor.

    3) "disapproved by local law enforcement authority" was automatic due to number (2)

    Indiana requires a response to appeal within (30) days. Don't delay in filing and send it certified mail!

    I appealed and my appeal date was set.

    I spoke with the "Agency Counsel" via phone prior to my appeal date to seek advice.
    This person is not your friend. This is the person who acts as prosecutor to keep you from getting a license.
    As we spoke, this person indicated the appeal proceedures are very informal.

    DON'T BELIEVE IT!

    This was far from informal. Everything is recorded. At the appeal is a Administrative Law Judge, the Agency Counsel and one or two assistants to the Agency Counsel.
    I was sworn in.

    I can now see why some might want to secure professional representation. I was asked questions that looked deeply into my past. I can see any mis-wording in my answers could cause the denial being upheld.
    My appearance at the appeal was less than friendly though I expected that. As the appeal procedure concluded; I felt certain the denial would not be over turned.

    The state had clearly made some mistakes concerning my case. I do not hold anyone in particular responsible other than the system itself.

    It is interesting to note how I tried to avoid the appeal process:

    1) A l letter from my local PD essentially endorsing issuing a permit to me. (see photo)

    2) I researched ALL prior charges, including the one from over 30 years ago.

    3) I sent all this to the Licensing Division via certified mail.

    It was my hope that proving (2) of the denial reasons were not germane and the "false statement" was completely accidental would secure my LTC.
    I was wrong.

    In the letter sent to me indicating the date & time of my appeal; (2) two of the reasons had disappeared with just "making a false statement" remaining. (see photo)
    Proof positive the state does research or verify the facts of a individuals criminal background. To be fair; it is not their job to do so.
    Well; at least I was making headway.

    Summary:

    If you feel you have a strong case, file for your appeal.
    Expect the process to be long with many hours of research on your part. It is not the state's responsibility to do this research for you; quite the contrary. Had I not proved my case with hard research backed with notarized documents, I seriously doubt I would have prevailed. My/your word is not good enough. You can sit there at the appeal and tell the judge your long sad story. W/o PROOF & legal precedent I had secured and had admitted into evidence, I feel certain the state would not have reversed it's initial decision.

    If you can afford legal representation; I highly recommend it. While I may not be Einstein, I am able to think quickly on my feet and know how to research. I was armed with documented facts and a knowledge of the specific legal statutes pertaining to gun permit laws. All should be so equipped before appearing at the appeal.

    Indiana is pretty much a "gun friendly" state. I was actually amazed when I was notified my initial denial was overturned.

    None of the parties involved in hearing my case acted unfairly. Keep in my mind though, they will NOT assist you in any way either.
    I understand the state's responsibility in issuing a LTC.

    If you don't have a felony record, domestic violence etc..etc and you feel your criminal background should not preclude you from a LTC; then by all means; appeal the decision.

    Be prepared for a lot of work and travel time in assembling documents, appearing at the appeal etc....

    Was it all worth it to me?
    YOU BET IT WAS!
    The system worked this time..at least in Indiana.
    My faith in the system has been partially restored._PCH7560.jpg_PCH7561.jpg_PCH7562.jpg

    If I left anything out or if there are questions, I'll do my best to answer them.
    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

    Do what you can; then do what you must


  2. #2
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    Hard work, diligence and attention to detail pay off. Congratulations on your success!
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  3. #3
    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Correction...

    "Proof positive the state does research or verify the facts of a individuals criminal background"

    Meant to say "Proof positive the state does NOT research or verify the facts of a individuals criminal background
    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

    Do what you can; then do what you must

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    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Congratulations ... Now, train, Train, TRAIN...Good luck and be safe Sir..
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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    Congrats on winning your appeal. This is why states legislatures build the right to appeal process into the laws. To correct mistakes made in the issuing process. Glad it worked for you.
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    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Congratulations, and thanks for fighting for you CCP. Maybe this will inspire others to do the same.
    Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men -St. Augustine

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    GH
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    You fought the good fight & won. I guess this proves that an ordinary citizen can fight the government bureaucracy & beat them.
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    Senior Member Array highvoltage's Avatar
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    Congratulations. But looking at the last sentence in the first picture, I can see why you were having issues:

    The FWPD has no realize now to be denied him at the local level.
    You weren't dealing with the brightest bulbs on the tree.
    BenGoodLuck likes this.

  9. #9
    mkh
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    Congrats and thanks for offering encouragement to others who may be denied.

  10. #10
    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highvoltage View Post
    Congratulations. But looking at the last sentence in the first picture, I can see why you were having issues:



    You weren't dealing with the brightest bulbs on the tree.
    Well sir, to be fair; I believe the supervisor at the FWPD records division made a simple typo.
    This FAX was sent to the Indianapolis Firearms Division while I was on the phone requesting it.
    Altering the FAX to correct for the typo would have been a no-no.
    I think the Admin Law Judge was able to figure out the intent.
    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

    Do what you can; then do what you must

  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GH View Post
    You fought the good fight & won. I guess this proves that an ordinary citizen can fight the government bureaucracy & beat them.
    I appreciate all the good words.

    I suppose it does show Mr. Average Citizen can overcome the government bureaucracy ; though hardly w/o great effort...no doubt why lawyers still make good livings.
    It certainly helped that I live in a "shall issue" state that is pro 2nd amendment.

    I'm sure there are some who would simply give up. For me, that was not an option. I am a photographer who spends much of my time in the great outdoors alone; the added measure of a LTC makes me feel a little more at ease.

    Indeed my first reaction was "Oh S#@!" ..and I thought about packing it in as the odds seemed stacked against me.

    I wonder if in a less gun friendly state would I have prevailed?

    Preparing and researching while arduous and time consuming were not the most difficult aspect. Waiting and waiting and waiting was the real stressor.

    My mind fabricated all sorts of negative possibilities. "What if the judge is anti gun?" "What if the Agency Counsel is anti gun?"

    I will re-iterate, if someone has a similar situation, I would highly recommend legal representation if the LTC is important to you.
    Had I known what the atmosphere was like at the appeal process, I would have spent the $2,500.

    Thanks again to all for the positive responses.

    I do hope it will encourage others to go for it. "If you don't ask, you will not receive"
    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

    Do what you can; then do what you must

  12. #12
    New Member Array countrygunner's Avatar
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    I know what you went through. I live in Ky and had the same problem although mine went a little different. My Dad and I took our class at the same time and applied the same day. Well when they both came back denied I basically give up. Keep in mind my Dad was the City Manager at the time and had been for 25 yrs. He had no more than a speeding ticket except for a terroristic threatening charge that he got because some guy called the house cussing my mom and dad at 3 am about his water being cut off because he hadn't paid his bill. So dad gets pissed of course because of the guys threats and says a few choice words. Well that guy goes to the sherrifs office and presses charges. Needless to say they were dropped the recored expunged and dad got his permit after an appeal.

    Well I though damn I'll never get mine if dad got turned down. I had a 4th degree assualt on a corrections officer. Dumb, Dumb move in my early days. I got drunk was a passenger in a vehicle that got pulled over and he got a dui and I an AI one night coming back from a party. Well I was bad enough to not even consider driving and somehow acted like a ******* with the corrections officer and he slapped a 4th degree assault on me for fighting with him when he went to put me in a cell. Now I don't remember this, this is what I was told. This is all I had on my record but turns out it's enough to keep you from getting your permit for a period of 3 yrs.

    So basically I gave up. This was in 2007 and the incident in 2003. So I thought if I didn't get it than I wasn't going to. So as the years went buy I learned more and more about the whole system and learned that if I wasn't legal to get my ccp than I may actually not even be allowed to have guns at all. So I got a lot more concerned about getting it. So In 2012 I finally decided to get all this straigtened out and apply once again. Well to my suprise I was about 65 days and got my letter in the mail that I was approved and needed to go to the sherrifs office to pick up my license. Now what the heck changed I don't know other than time. Maybe a different guy doing the process on their end? If I had continued to forget and give up on it I would have never got it.

    To me it's much more than a carry permit. It also validates your legal to purchase and own firearms. It keeps you from having that ***** cop determine that your carrying concealed because he didn't bother to keep up on the new laws that say you can keep your gun in the center console now in Ky. With a permit it doesn't matter where it is. Plus most important of all and you can protect yourself anywhere.

  13. #13
    New Member Array Indianaman's Avatar
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    Exclamation I believe I'm getting ready to go through this as well

    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    Hopefully my experience will encourage others who have been denied a LTC for one reason or another to NOT give up.

    Was it all worth it to me?
    YOU BET IT WAS!
    The system worked this time..at least in Indiana.
    My faith in the system has been partially restored._PCH7560.jpg_PCH7561.jpg_PCH7562.jpg

    If I left anything out or if there are questions, I'll do my best to answer them.
    Thanks for taking the time for all of this. I believe that I am getting ready to go through this myself. I am in Indianapolis as well and had gone through the process of applying for lifetime carry permit. After doing the electronic fingerprinting (make the process faster..haha) and going downtown and completing the process I waited for 18 weeks with no response. So I decided to call to see what was going on with my application.
    It took several days to find someone to talk to as the number on their website is only a recording stating that they are very busy.
    I finally spoke with a police officer and he looked into it. Good thing I called. If there is a problem with your application he said "it just gets thrown into 'the bin' and they come back to them whenever they get around to it".
    So long story short I had forgotten about an arrest nearly 40 years ago. The police officer said I needed to get the dissertation (sp?) stating the outcome. I contacted the police department in the town (where I was born and raised) where this happened and they said I would need to contact the Prosecutor's office for that information although they did find a document in their files about this incident.
    I contacted the Prosecutor's office and was told that they didn't have any records from that long ago. So I called the police department back and they were kind enough to send me what they had. I spoke with the same Indiana State Police officer and he seemed to understand all of this and said that was ok, to just send the document I was given. So I emailed him this document.
    10 weeks later I had not heard back so I emailed him again. He responded that I needed to call him to discuss this. When I called him it seemed like we had to start all over as nothing appeared to have been done in the last 10 weeks. He said he would have to make some calls to see what was going on and he would call me back shortly. He did call me back in about 15 minutes and told me that I was being denied becaused I had falsified the application because I answer 'NO' to the question if I had been charged with a felony and/or a misdemeanor. I said it wasn't a felony, I was a kid, made a stupid mistake by taking a car battery and was fined $5 for doing so, hardly a felony. He responded 'All thefts are a felony'.
    WHAT?? That sure doesn't seem right. He continued by saying they would send out paperwork in the next few days and that I would have to appear to explain why I had lied on my application. (A lie is an intentional act to decieve, this was an honest mistake - again nearly 40 years ago!)
    So here I am waiting for the letter to arrive. I've been searching around, I didn't know if I needed a lawyer or what. Then I read your posting and it has helped alot. Thanks very much! Maybe I can sleep tonight
    Oh and by the way. Over the years I have purchased a few handguns and rifles, always passed the background checks. I also applied for a carry permit many years ago (12 -15) and passed that background check and was issue a carry permit at that time. If I remember correctly I renewed it once and then let it lapse. But then again, I didn't remember the arrest 40 years ago so I could be wrong about the renewal.... :)

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    Welcome to the forum, Indianaman, good luck.
    blitzburgh and Aceoky like this.

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    Welcome to the site from Maryland , and good luck to you as well
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