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Road Rage...how far do you take it?

8K views 75 replies 45 participants last post by  detective 
#1 ·
Here's part of an article in a local paper. Hypothetically, you are the Honda driver. What is your response to this incident?

"Judson says the Honda driver responded with a "what are you doing?" gesture when a Chevrolet Blazer merged onto State Highway 167 near Algona, cut across all lanes and suddenly slowed. The trooper says the brothers in the Blazer then pursued the Honda.

She says another Blazer driven by the young men's father helped force the Honda onto the shoulder. Witnesses say one young man climbed onto the Honda's hood, hitting it with a club, while the other repeatedly hit the car driver in the face. The Honda driver finally managed to drive away."
 
#35 ·
The sound level from firing inside a car would probably be deafening, or nearly so. There is also the question of bullet being deflected by going through the glass and going somewhere unintended. For these reasons alone, I would want to hold off on firing if I possibly could.
 
#36 ·
Allot of people here seem to not know much about cars in a situation like this, or at least aren't thinking about makes and models.
Yeah, I know I am new HERE, but I have been racing cars since I turned 17. My wife and I do demolition derby racing (yes racing, it's not a bash fest, it's 15 or more laps of no holds barred)
The article never mentions much about vehicles. A Blazer, hmmmm S-10? Full size? Diesel? The honda, Civic? Accord? Gutless hybrid?
You get shoved by a full size blazer in an old civic, stick your nose just infront of his rear wheel and turn into him. Pancake flippin time!
But to jam your hybrid into reverse or drive and cream the gas pedal? You'd do more damage or escape faster on a tricycle.
My wife drives our Chevy Tahoe which has reenforced bumpers and a well built motor. Because she drives into crazy ass NJ every day, and she (being the driver of our derby cars) knows full well how to use that truck because you cannot carry a firearm into NJ.
Myself, I drive the tiny Mazda.. It moves WELL.. Did this guy even try evading?
These guys could have possibly shoved me to the side, and yeah I'd be on the phone with the police, informing them I was ccw. Hit my windshield, it's $200 for a new one... Come through my windshield or reach through my window and I WILL help your bodies ventilation system with a few .380 or 9mm rounds.
Like someone mentioned earlier, I m TO OLD anymore to go fist fighting 2 or 3 guys. But it is my DUTY to try and evade / escape.
 
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#37 ·
I have been involved in minor road rage encounters but nothing this major. I have encountered annoyed/angry people that communicate with hand gestures but it never went beyond that point. Being cornered/ran off the road would have put me in condition orange immediately. I would have been on the phone with 911 at that point. The moment I spotted a weapon, I would report it to the operator and say "I am in fear for my life, bad guy approaching with weapon X. Guy is on the hood of the car..." The moment the bat contacted the vehicle, I would consider it an escalation of force and the gun would come out of the holster. I would still try to find an escape route but had the second blazer pinned the front of the car, preventing escape, I would move to condition red. It's hard to say exactly what the right thing to do is from that point but it seems clear to me that all the necessary factors are in place for the justification of deadly force.

One other thing to consider are the other guys that did not approach your Honda. How do you know they are not armed? They could be waiting for you to get out before they start shooting.

I agree that it's important not to escalate the situation by engaging in eye contact/hand gestures. It never helps the situation, and only escalates it.
 
#38 ·
I used to be a little hot head and would gesture and flap my arms around, yell a bit... Luckiy nothing ever came of it other than I blew off a little steam. As I've gotten older, and started having kids in the car, I've calmed way way down. I don't gesture, honk, yell.... Someone cuts me off and I just keep on going, someone drives aggressively, I drop back a little. It's simply not worth it and people are nuts.

Several years ago when we lived up in Jacksonville someone got mad at my husband, I don't even remember what for, when driving in am rush hour traffic approaching the highway. My husband did the hand flail and yell thing. The guy in the truck pulled up next to my husband and pointed a gun out the window at him. Husband hit the brakes and went over the sidewalk to his right (thank God no one there) and called the police. The police caught up with him on the highway. It's just not worth it.

More recently, in Orlando while stopped at a light someone came up and started kicking his car, he swears he has no idea why. He went to get out (stupid) and the guy slammed his door shut on his leg. Then then jumped back into his friend's car and took off. The police officer that responded asked my husband why he didn't have a gun in the car and said he could have started shooting through the window as soon as the other guy started kicking his car (I disagree and told my husband that was very bad advice). Personally I asked why he didn't just run the light and what were you thinking getting out of the car?!
 
#39 ·
I see careless drivers virtually every day. If they cut me off, I just back off and give them space. If they're driving like complete idiots, I call the incident into 911.

The Honda driver made the initial mistake of the "gesture". I betcha the Blazer brothers thought the Honda driver was giving them the middle finger, and thus the situation quickly escalates.
 
#40 ·
The boxing in manuever is taught at most police driving schools. If theres one car in front, one to the side, you jam your brakes 100% to escape. If they have you stopped you jam the gas 100% to escape.

Sitting there waiting for them to come to you is foolish.

Oh and lots of brandishing, menacing and verbal commands with a barrel in their face at this point.
 
#42 ·
Sitting there waiting for them to come to you is foolish.

.
This is what I was thinking too....once they exit their vehicle, get back on the road and go if you are not completely blocked in. And still be on the phone with 911 the whole time.
 
#41 ·
I agree with several others here. I would have my weapon drawn as any of the perpetrators approached my car. Gesture or no. The reaction from the perps here is taking things up a notch the minute they hem me in and then get out of their vehicles once they have me stopped. I didn't add the "they would never have got me off the road as I believe the question from the OP here is asking you to be in this specific situation and that is what do you do after you have run off the road and are now being approached by multiple non friendlies.
 
#43 ·
I agree with several others here. I would have my weapon drawn as any of the perpetrators approached my car. Gesture or no.
The recent post/video about the motorist in Israel who had a baseball-bat wielding hothead exit his car and quickly come at him shows a reasonable way to handle a single hothead. I agree with you, though, it shouldn't be much different in a case of multiple hotheads. The deadly-weapon-wielding by the hothead(s) is the game-changer. At that point, it's not unreasonable to expect one's life to be at grave risk.
 
#44 ·
How were they able to punch him? The windows would be up up up and doors locked. Unless they try to get into my car I am hopefully reasonably safe. He must not have been totally box in by the two vehicles because he was able to drive away. We aren't sure how fast all this happened so not sure there would be time for a 911 call. If there is time secure the car and call 911 let them know what is going on. If they are getting into my car, glass falling in or I see a gun, I am going to shoot.
 
#45 ·
0. Avoidance is the best course fo actino. The (non-obscene, I assume) gesture is not the problem, the extreme over reaction to it is. That said, I used to honk at stupid drivers. That probably wasn't smart.
1. If they initiate any deadly force, recognise that and don't think any more about whether deadly force on my part is justified - it is. That doesn't mean to start firing though. That just means that I can start thinking of if/when/how instead of if I am justified or not. Forcing me off the road, or attempting to do so constitutes their initiation of deadly force.
2. Escape if possible. Brake, reverse, wait for them to get out of their vehicle and then I drive off. Depends on the situation. I can't tell from the limited information given.
3. 911 is secondary to my self-defense. Call only if there is time. There might be time while still driving. Maybe time after I back up to get away. Maybe no time at all. If I have to choose between 911 or unholstering, I will unholster.
4. Don't let them get too close. If I reverse down the road a ways to get away, and they reverse after me, I'm not sure that I would try to drive away. They have already chased me on the highway and getting into a another high speed chase again doesn't seem wise, especially if they are in 2 trucks and I'm in a little car. It may give me time to call 911 though. I may shoot into their reversing trucks. I may wait for them to get out. If they get out and start after me with a baseball bat, I am firing. Either way my goal will be to get them to leave me alone.

Overall, there is not enough information given to decide exactly what I would/should do. But it's good to think about. I guess that's why I like these scenarios.
 
#46 ·
You know, maybe the reason the person got blocked in was because they were on the phone while all this was going down. Fore sure call 911. But while you're being manipulated off the road and approached by thugs...not the best time. People have a hard enough time driving with 2 hands on the wheel, much less 1.
 
#49 ·
THere are a few common options so you dont have to use your hands to use your cell phone these days.....jus' sayin'. On Star, Blue Tooth, etc.
 
#48 ·
-Well, if it's possible, avoid responding when first cut off, I know... I know... i've done it too, "signaled my displeasure" to the other driver, but if you have a crazy behind that wheel, this is the start. No, it's not in any way your fault, it's just a practical avoidance because people can be nuts.

I'd call 911 and head to the nearest police station if a car was in serious pursuit. And I'd have the gun out when the club was first seen - or if I could when the other cars were coming at me: a car can be a lethal weapon and anyone seeing a someone coming at them with a club would reasonably believe their life was in jeopardy - and that's the key test for lethal Self-Defense.

Now, that's when NOT having done anything at the start can help:

The others will claim you threw the finger and while that won't justify their actions it puts you in a slight hazy position as far as "not participating in any part of any altercation that precedes the act of lethal SD" should you have to shoot. Those are my words but they are similar to what is usually another condition for SD: not acting to increase hostilities and thereby bear some responsibility for the danger you find yourself in. It won't kill your case. But it could throw a slight shadow on it.

Once your gun is out: you act as per the situation demands. If they suddenly retreat, it's one story, if they aggress more, it's another.
 
#50 ·
Dial 911 and leave the phone on the seat yell out your location and what is happening. " i need help, send the cops, two men boxed me in on hwy 55 at milepost 65 by the turner exit! They have a club, their licence plate numbers are ######. Everything on 911 is recorded. If the BG's kill you and drive away it will all be on tape for the jury to listen to at their murder trial.
 
#51 ·
My car is pretty small and light weight so it could be forced off the road pretty easy by a mid-sized SUV like a blazer. If anyone tried to forced me off the road and have no other choice but to be forced off the road then I have no other choice but to take it to the next level. If I was driving my SUV, that has a little bit more bulk and weight to it than my car, I could just ram back and get out of the area with ease, I hope.
 
#52 ·
As I stated in my post & no one seemed to pick up on it. What's going to happen when ya'll start playing bumper cars on a busy road or freeway ? We are just as responsible for the safety of others while in a vehicle as when we pull the trigger. LEO's use the door as cover as would I in this type of situation. Using your vehicle for cover rather than a weapon makes more sense to me.
 
#53 ·
"Playing" bumper cars has its place, dependent on the situation. Sure, taking cover behind a vehicle is an option as well, but not every situation's going to allow time enough to get out, particularly when compared to a fast-moving situation that catches a person behind the wheel, engine running, gears engaged, death approaching and nowhere to go.

As you say, though, if one person's depredations are taken down at the expense of a number of innocents nearby, what's the point?
 
#56 ·
I learned my lesson on road rage after a guy ran a red light and nearly hit me. I simply raised my hands in a "what are you doing gesture", and the guy did a full on 180 and followed me in to a parking lot. I am a pretty big guy (6'3 190) but the guy that got out of the truck had me by a few inches and probably fifty pounds. Started yelling at me saying he should beat my ass.. I unfortunately was not carrying at the time, but I said that I'll go my way and he can go his. I then turned and started walking (while watching his reflection in the glass of a nearby car and I had my knife in my hand.. All in all made me pretty nervous, but I learned to make no visible signals anymore.
 
#58 · (Edited)
Lets take a step in a more 'broader' direction here....... it's been said that violence can only be stoped by employing equal or greater violence.

WRT the Op's article refrenced, your in a Honda and there are two hostile chevy Blazers bearing down on you. This is a situation where you have to NOT PANIC and use your WITS.
Can you choose where where your gonna be 'sidelined'? Is it a populated/busy area or a 'suburban' highway/interstate? Can your car keep the pace or is it too weak (engine power) to evade TWO suv's attempting to sholder you and box you in? Can you 'effectivly' counter their manuvers? CAN YOU ESCAPE/EVADE?
Their intent is perfectly clear at this point..... this is a deadly force situation (an SUV used as an aggressive 'weapon')

You (i.e., 'we') are armed. You HAVE to assume they are as well.

Two big Chevys working together to FORCE you (in a Honda) off the road is NOT a 'game on' sceaniro. This is deadly business and (at the very least) two road-ragers will NOT endanger me or my family (I am the sole 'bread-winner' for my clan). 'IF' I can 'choose' where I'm going to be 'side-lined' AND I can keep at least one tactical 'edge', then I will HAVE to go the route that THEY have chosen for me and I'm gonna find a 'open' area to engage....... engagement being brandishing my weapon (and hopefully scaring them off) or employing my sidearm to stop the threat. I will shoot if cornered like that AND given NO OTHER OPTION.

Remember, wether it's pulling a gun or 'evading' aggressive road-ragers, this constitutes deadly force. Speed and distance are you friend and FIRST priority! The gun is your last.

Me, I'm looking at every possible avenue of escape/evasion....... at the very least to put some distance between them and me. Can't do that, then what?
 
#59 ·
The more I think about this, the more frustrated I get. What is "just" about a system that expects the victim to stand passively by while $thousands of damage is done to his property - damage that he will wind up paying for? (And before someone says "That's what insurance is for" who pays the insurance premiums?) The victim should be legally able to use a weapon (gun) the instant the perps - I think "Zombies" could apply, here - used their weapons (vehicles.)

What is "just" about a system that expects the victim to endure physical assault and prevents them from employing the "equalizer" because maybe the perp "was just funnin" and doesn't "deserve" to die for "merely" injuring - no matter how severely - somebody.

The more we, as a society, coddle these Zombies, the more we will have to put up with their BS! But, then, chaos achieves the liberals'/progressives' purpose by making the sheeple even more dependent upon the government...
 
#60 ·
In this example, I didnt see anyone say they'd allow someone to physically assault them. We all (I think) said that there was a reasonable threshold to draw...and fire if necessary to prevent gross bodily harm.

And with a few pics of license plates and perpetrators, plus 911 on the line....the OTHER guy's insurance would be paying for any damage. And his insurance rates would go up. And you might get other damages out of it. Is killing someone better than higher insurance rates?

If you took other 'evasive' action...YOU might be the one causing an accident or damaging other people's vehicles.

I understand the frustration, but I'm trying to look at it more practically.
 
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#61 ·
You know, it's funny. I had a situation earlier today where I was cut off but a car, and not just cut off, but he actually almost hit me. I honked at him to let him know I was there, and without even thinking about it, I gave him a WTH? look. It just came out of me before I even realized I was doing it. That's something I need to work on, since I do believe that the best thing to do is not to react at all. I guess I'm just a work in progress.
 
#62 ·
I honked at him to let him know I was there, and without even thinking about it, I gave him a WTH? look. It just came out of me before I even realized I was doing it.
Nothing to rag on yourself about.

I'm sure it was just that, a "what's going on / what are you doing / please pay better attention lest you kill someone" type look. Not a "screw your family, friends, mother's mother etc" type look. As we all know, there are some knee-jerk idiots out there who will deliberately misconstrue anything to mean you're "threatening" them and "escalating" things. Malarkey, of course, but it is what it is.
 
#70 ·
OK...I've been reading some of the post and see various responses. IMO once the BG's attempted to force me off the road, 911 is called. Secondly if they succeeded in blocking me and they exited the vehicle, my GUN would be out and pointed. At this very point in time ME/YOU/US do not have any clue on what they are thinking. I'm not waiting to find out if its just a move to see what I'm going to do or not. A LEO once told me that if your home is invaded you have to consider 2 things...A: the BG has been shot at before and B: You banishing a gun and screaming "I'm calling the police" is not going to work. He then stated that you have to be prepared to act with such a level of violence to defend yourself.

If guys in the article do not care about all the witness that are driving by on the hwy...what makes you/me/us think they care if we are on the phone with 911 or taking pictures. I would rather be "TRIED BY 12 THEN CARRIED BY 6". And please don't let my wife/kids be in the car...because if that was the case...I'm really going ballistic.
 
#72 ·
I'm sure we all have seen this road rage before...small kids may not want to watch this Murder or Self Defense, You decide - YouTube

Put yourself in the shoes of the Honda driver in the article and the driver of this car...In the video we see how fast things can happen and not playing Monday morning QB on an article.
That video/case doesn't really have anything to do with road rage. Though both actors were behind the wheel when the incident developed, the perceived slight was prior to and independent of any event occurring on the road itself.
 
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