Road Rage...how far do you take it?

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Originally Posted by Danoh

THIS....

Plus, look at the guys sig line: "(Sometimes) a fight avoided is a fight won. ... claude clay"

I drive a F-250 w Diesel. It has totally changed my driiving habits. You simply can't jam the throttle, like you can a regular gas one. I'm defensive driving ALL the time.

Take the high road. Don't look at them, Don't flip them off, and Don't even "wave". You are in control here. You have removed ANY satisfaction of them knowing you have acknowledged even their existence. Failing to attract my attention, they move on, and go pick on someone else.

Also, per one person's later post. If someone "parks" in the left lane..... I simply go around them. Again, no looks, no flipping, no nothing. Just move on. Certainly NEVER get ahead of them, and give them brake lights. Give plenty of space. Often times, they'll just go Oops, and move over after you have passed them on the right.

FAILING ALL THIS. IF I still managed to get trapped..... and can't drive out. LOCK THE DOOR's. 911 to start the ball rolling, and continous talking to the dispatcher. Get it all on tape. I don't think I'll have time to take pictures. Will I shoot as the glass is cracked?? Probally not. As the glass starts to fail, is when the safety comes off, and I start defending.

OK. I've said my piece. I'd love to hear whith others have to say about my post.

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Heh, it's pretty much what I said, except more examples.

Disparity of force; cornered; multiple assailants bringing out deadly weaponry; coordinated attack by the group. Utterly lawful to defend using whatever force is required, I'd say. They're bringing it on themselves, and they're putting others in absolute threat of loss of life.

If as claimed in the article, that the hands were raised in an apparently non-threatening "what are you doing" type motion, the actions of the assailants aren't justified in any way, shape or form, and (IMO) the person gesturing didn't provoke or cause a thing, despite the assailant gang taking offense.

Quoting from general statute 14-51.2, as it applies in my state:

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The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a home, motor vehicle, or workplace, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the home, motor vehicle, or workplace.

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Hitting the glass with a club or bat IS attempting an unlawful and forceful entry and I would be well within my rights to use deadly force to stop their attempt. At what point would I draw? At what point would I fire? If they were standing on or beside my trapped vehicle with a raised club threatening to strike, they would be staring at the business end of my gun with full knowledge of what will happen to them should they proceed. The moment that the glass cracks, breaks, or otherwise makes a clear shot, is when I would fire. I would hope to have the presence of mind to take a picture of them making the threat, but even if i don't the physical evidence would speak for itself.

What for the glass to break? I see somebody coming at me with a club/ bat/ stick. I am getting a new hood ornament.

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Originally Posted by HKinNY

What for the glass to break? I see somebody coming at me with a club/ bat/ stick. I am getting a new hood ornament.

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The sound level from firing inside a car would probably be deafening, or nearly so. There is also the question of bullet being deflected by going through the glass and going somewhere unintended. For these reasons alone, I would want to hold off on firing if I possibly could.

Allot of people here seem to not know much about cars in a situation like this, or at least aren't thinking about makes and models.
Yeah, I know I am new HERE, but I have been racing cars since I turned 17. My wife and I do demolition derby racing (yes racing, it's not a bash fest, it's 15 or more laps of no holds barred)
The article never mentions much about vehicles. A Blazer, hmmmm S-10? Full size? Diesel? The honda, Civic? Accord? Gutless hybrid?
You get shoved by a full size blazer in an old civic, stick your nose just infront of his rear wheel and turn into him. Pancake flippin time!
But to jam your hybrid into reverse or drive and cream the gas pedal? You'd do more damage or escape faster on a tricycle.
My wife drives our Chevy Tahoe which has reenforced bumpers and a well built motor. Because she drives into crazy ass NJ every day, and she (being the driver of our derby cars) knows full well how to use that truck because you cannot carry a firearm into NJ.
Myself, I drive the tiny Mazda.. It moves WELL.. Did this guy even try evading?
These guys could have possibly shoved me to the side, and yeah I'd be on the phone with the police, informing them I was ccw. Hit my windshield, it's $200 for a new one... Come through my windshield or reach through my window and I WILL help your bodies ventilation system with a few .380 or 9mm rounds.
Like someone mentioned earlier, I m TO OLD anymore to go fist fighting 2 or 3 guys. But it is my DUTY to try and evade / escape.

I have been involved in minor road rage encounters but nothing this major. I have encountered annoyed/angry people that communicate with hand gestures but it never went beyond that point. Being cornered/ran off the road would have put me in condition orange immediately. I would have been on the phone with 911 at that point. The moment I spotted a weapon, I would report it to the operator and say "I am in fear for my life, bad guy approaching with weapon X. Guy is on the hood of the car..." The moment the bat contacted the vehicle, I would consider it an escalation of force and the gun would come out of the holster. I would still try to find an escape route but had the second blazer pinned the front of the car, preventing escape, I would move to condition red. It's hard to say exactly what the right thing to do is from that point but it seems clear to me that all the necessary factors are in place for the justification of deadly force.

One other thing to consider are the other guys that did not approach your Honda. How do you know they are not armed? They could be waiting for you to get out before they start shooting.

I agree that it's important not to escalate the situation by engaging in eye contact/hand gestures. It never helps the situation, and only escalates it.

I used to be a little hot head and would gesture and flap my arms around, yell a bit... Luckiy nothing ever came of it other than I blew off a little steam. As I've gotten older, and started having kids in the car, I've calmed way way down. I don't gesture, honk, yell.... Someone cuts me off and I just keep on going, someone drives aggressively, I drop back a little. It's simply not worth it and people are nuts.

Several years ago when we lived up in Jacksonville someone got mad at my husband, I don't even remember what for, when driving in am rush hour traffic approaching the highway. My husband did the hand flail and yell thing. The guy in the truck pulled up next to my husband and pointed a gun out the window at him. Husband hit the brakes and went over the sidewalk to his right (thank God no one there) and called the police. The police caught up with him on the highway. It's just not worth it.

More recently, in Orlando while stopped at a light someone came up and started kicking his car, he swears he has no idea why. He went to get out (stupid) and the guy slammed his door shut on his leg. Then then jumped back into his friend's car and took off. The police officer that responded asked my husband why he didn't have a gun in the car and said he could have started shooting through the window as soon as the other guy started kicking his car (I disagree and told my husband that was very bad advice). Personally I asked why he didn't just run the light and what were you thinking getting out of the car?!

I see careless drivers virtually every day. If they cut me off, I just back off and give them space. If they're driving like complete idiots, I call the incident into 911.

The Honda driver made the initial mistake of the "gesture". I betcha the Blazer brothers thought the Honda driver was giving them the middle finger, and thus the situation quickly escalates.

The boxing in manuever is taught at most police driving schools. If theres one car in front, one to the side, you jam your brakes 100% to escape. If they have you stopped you jam the gas 100% to escape.

Sitting there waiting for them to come to you is foolish.

Oh and lots of brandishing, menacing and verbal commands with a barrel in their face at this point.

I agree with several others here. I would have my weapon drawn as any of the perpetrators approached my car. Gesture or no. The reaction from the perps here is taking things up a notch the minute they hem me in and then get out of their vehicles once they have me stopped. I didn't add the "they would never have got me off the road as I believe the question from the OP here is asking you to be in this specific situation and that is what do you do after you have run off the road and are now being approached by multiple non friendlies.

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Originally Posted by Bikemobile

Sitting there waiting for them to come to you is foolish.

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This is what I was thinking too....once they exit their vehicle, get back on the road and go if you are not completely blocked in. And still be on the phone with 911 the whole time.

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Originally Posted by Kimberpackn

I agree with several others here. I would have my weapon drawn as any of the perpetrators approached my car. Gesture or no.

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The recent post/video about the motorist in Israel who had a baseball-bat wielding hothead exit his car and quickly come at him shows a reasonable way to handle a single hothead. I agree with you, though, it shouldn't be much different in a case of multiple hotheads. The deadly-weapon-wielding by the hothead(s) is the game-changer. At that point, it's not unreasonable to expect one's life to be at grave risk.

How were they able to punch him? The windows would be up up up and doors locked. Unless they try to get into my car I am hopefully reasonably safe. He must not have been totally box in by the two vehicles because he was able to drive away. We aren't sure how fast all this happened so not sure there would be time for a 911 call. If there is time secure the car and call 911 let them know what is going on. If they are getting into my car, glass falling in or I see a gun, I am going to shoot.

0. Avoidance is the best course fo actino. The (non-obscene, I assume) gesture is not the problem, the extreme over reaction to it is. That said, I used to honk at stupid drivers. That probably wasn't smart.
1. If they initiate any deadly force, recognise that and don't think any more about whether deadly force on my part is justified - it is. That doesn't mean to start firing though. That just means that I can start thinking of if/when/how instead of if I am justified or not. Forcing me off the road, or attempting to do so constitutes their initiation of deadly force.
2. Escape if possible. Brake, reverse, wait for them to get out of their vehicle and then I drive off. Depends on the situation. I can't tell from the limited information given.
3. 911 is secondary to my self-defense. Call only if there is time. There might be time while still driving. Maybe time after I back up to get away. Maybe no time at all. If I have to choose between 911 or unholstering, I will unholster.
4. Don't let them get too close. If I reverse down the road a ways to get away, and they reverse after me, I'm not sure that I would try to drive away. They have already chased me on the highway and getting into a another high speed chase again doesn't seem wise, especially if they are in 2 trucks and I'm in a little car. It may give me time to call 911 though. I may shoot into their reversing trucks. I may wait for them to get out. If they get out and start after me with a baseball bat, I am firing. Either way my goal will be to get them to leave me alone.

Overall, there is not enough information given to decide exactly what I would/should do. But it's good to think about. I guess that's why I like these scenarios.