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Road Rage...how far do you take it?

8K views 75 replies 45 participants last post by  detective 
#1 ·
Here's part of an article in a local paper. Hypothetically, you are the Honda driver. What is your response to this incident?

"Judson says the Honda driver responded with a "what are you doing?" gesture when a Chevrolet Blazer merged onto State Highway 167 near Algona, cut across all lanes and suddenly slowed. The trooper says the brothers in the Blazer then pursued the Honda.

She says another Blazer driven by the young men's father helped force the Honda onto the shoulder. Witnesses say one young man climbed onto the Honda's hood, hitting it with a club, while the other repeatedly hit the car driver in the face. The Honda driver finally managed to drive away."
 
#3 ·
In my wife's Jetta? Try to squeeze out if I can, and if I have to run someone over I do it. If I can't get out I start shooting.

In my Jeep I will be able to push almost anyone or anything out of my way. I will get out. Who or what gets damaged in the process is not my problem.
 
#6 ·
First lesson - don't make any kind of gesture. Second lesson - you have a car that is a several thousand pound weapon. Use it to save your life.
 
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#14 ·
First of all for all the folks that say that they can't be driven off the road: you are wrong. I have been to training where you try to knock people off the road and keep yourself from getting knocked off the road. It can be done by folks that know what they are doing. And if you know what you are doing this is turning into a rather dangerous cat and mouse game. (Obviously do what you have to to protect yourself and family). But never say never or get your ego inflated to the point you can't believe somebody is as capable as you are.

Now for the scenario: I would never let myself get put in that situation:danceban: Seriously, if you did get locked into the shoulder or your vehicle was incapacitated and they were getting out of their vehicles (and I have no way of moving), gun is getting unholstered and as soon as the glass is broke then I at that time shooting would be appropriate. I do not think I would shoot just by the presence of a bat and the circumstances. But once that bat started flying all bets are off.

^^^Boom, there it is^^^^^^^^^^


One or all of them will be getting scraped up off the pavement.
 
#8 ·
well... I don't even know where to start on this one. First, you wouldn't force me off the road ... you may hit my car, but you wont' force me off the road. Second, if I pulled over and stopped and you had a "club" in your hands...er ... if you want to take on a 3000 - 4000 lb car you are an idiot. And yes, I've met jerks like those ...... one , I made a similar comment to when he was driving like an idiot and thought he would just intimidate everyone to get out his way or run them over.

He stopped in the middle of the highway right after that light and came walking back towards my truck with some 'bar' in his hands and angry look..... I was already on the phone with 911. I also put the clutch in and raced the engine up .... and did a few little leaps in the front end... to let him know ... if he came another further I could pop the clutch and he might not want to take on a "truck"... . so he just stood there in the middle of the highway, I think just trying to look intimidating. I thought it was rather funny and stupid really.

He had also been screaming and hitting his wife, with about a 2 yr old in a car seat in the back seat when I saw him in traffic prior to that ...... his crazy driving (really bad) was a danger to the child....... which the police took special interest in when they arrived. He seemed rather suprised to see the police and jumped into his car to "run for it" , but they cut him off rather quickly. He went to jail.

If ya just took a "club" or baseball bat to my car ...... and then headed for me.... it might get ugly... because I would consider a "club" in the hands of a out of control lunatic a dangerous weapon at that point.

I might point out that here...... the castle doctrine applies if you are in your vehicle and someone attempts to enter it illegally while you are occupying it , or to assault you while you are in your vehicle.
 
#10 ·
Neither of my family's vehicles could be easily forced off the road. But I wouldn't stay there while someone starts beating on my car, to await them getting into the passenger compartment.
 
#11 ·
Castle doctrine or not, the coordinated interdiction using 2 vehicles to block you in would seem to put you on solid legal footing.

Reading this is scary. You could possibly carefully back up on the shoulder and hope the blocking vehicle didn't parallel you but if I had my wife or one of my kids along, I'd be unlikely to attempt that, or ramming vehicles. No, this idiotic nonsense would likely have cost someone their life if this happened to me. What the hell are people thinking pulling something like this? Especially in Washington state. A lot of people carry guns there.
 
#12 ·
First of all for all the folks that say that they can't be driven off the road: you are wrong. I have been to training where you try to knock people off the road and keep yourself from getting knocked off the road. It can be done by folks that know what they are doing. And if you know what you are doing this is turning into a rather dangerous cat and mouse game. (Obviously do what you have to to protect yourself and family). But never say never or get your ego inflated to the point you can't believe somebody is as capable as you are.

Now for the scenario: I would never let myself get put in that situation:danceban: Seriously, if you did get locked into the shoulder or your vehicle was incapacitated and they were getting out of their vehicles (and I have no way of moving), gun is getting unholstered and as soon as the glass is broke then I at that time shooting would be appropriate. I do not think I would shoot just by the presence of a bat and the circumstances. But once that bat started flying all bets are off.
 
#13 ·
First of all for all the folks that say that they can't be driven off the road: you are wrong. I have been to training where you try to knock people off the road and keep yourself from getting knocked off the road. It can be done by folks that know what they are doing.
Yep.. and some of us know all of the tricks... and you wouldn't put me off the road... I don't care how much you 'think ' you know. Don't ever over-estimate your abilities either. AS I would have no reservations ... if someone attempted it... to do the things I know how to do.
 
#15 ·
All interesting comments, and of course, as events unfold you'd better to be able to make the correct decisions in a couple of areas in split seconds.

Since I'm carrying, I know I'd have a way of turning the tables...but when? The credo is only as a last resort when the situation approachs endangering my life. Again...when? In this situation the guy got smacked around, but not seriously hurt, so I'm not so sure that drawing would fly with LEO's or the courts in this case. I draw and I may be open to brandishing or assault so I'd better make sure it's justified and I'm ready to take it to the next level pronto.

He was able to drive away, car bashed, him bashed, them arrested, but no one left bleeding with .45 cal holes in them and so, and I realize it's rhetorical, but quite possibly that was the best course of action armed or not. I would say that if batman had shown he was about to use it on me after he got done with the car...he's likely to be approaching room temperature at that very instance. That, IMHO, would fly with any LOE or court.
 
#19 ·
All interesting comments, and of course, as events unfold you'd better to be able to make the correct decisions in a couple of areas in split seconds.

Since I'm carrying, I know I'd have a way of turning the tables...but when? The credo is only as a last resort when the situation approachs endangering my life. Again...when? In this situation the guy got smacked around, but not seriously hurt, so I'm not so sure that drawing would fly with LEO's or the courts in this case. I draw and I may be open to brandishing or assault so I'd better make sure it's justified and I'm ready to take it to the next level pronto.

He was able to drive away, car bashed, him bashed, them arrested, but no one left bleeding with .45 cal holes in them and so, and I realize it's rhetorical, but quite possibly that was the best course of action armed or not. I would say that if batman had shown he was about to use it on me after he got done with the car...he's likely to be approaching room temperature at that very instance. That, IMHO, would fly with any LOE or court.
How would you EVER know if they'd stop at 'knocking around?????' If that's your attitude, why carry a firearm at all? (Assuming you do, since you are on this forum, but perhaps not).

Granted, I am a woman and may have some consideration of disparity of force but I will not allow someone to put their hands on me. In a true SD situation, they have absolutely no right to do so and I have no idea why they would but also have no idea why I'd believe they'd just 'knock me around' and then leave. They could easily disable my ability to defend myself with a single punch or kick. And there was more than one of them. Gross bodily harm is also a felony and in my state I can use deadly force to stop such.
 
#17 ·
Well, since I stayed at the Holiday Inn Express in Kodak I guess I'm qualified to say, "say what?"
 
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#18 ·
Best course of action after reading the article, and many, many similar stories, would be to not even 'jesture' at the punks.

As for being chased and forced off the road by TWO automobiles working together, 911 would already have been dialed. My sidearm would come into play, how I employ it would be a question but a bat hits glass it's on. I'd already be concerned this punk and his punk-offspring were armed regardless. Very scary situation.
I'd do everything I possibly could to stay mobile.
 
#30 ·
Best course of action after reading the article, and many, many similar stories, would be to not even 'jesture' at the punks.
THIS....

Plus, look at the guys sig line: "(Sometimes) a fight avoided is a fight won. ... claude clay"

I drive a F-250 w Diesel. It has totally changed my driiving habits. You simply can't jam the throttle, like you can a regular gas one. I'm defensive driving ALL the time.

Take the high road. Don't look at them, Don't flip them off, and Don't even "wave". You are in control here. You have removed ANY satisfaction of them knowing you have acknowledged even their existence. Failing to attract my attention, they move on, and go pick on someone else.

Also, per one person's later post. If someone "parks" in the left lane..... I simply go around them. Again, no looks, no flipping, no nothing. Just move on. Certainly NEVER get ahead of them, and give them brake lights. Give plenty of space. Often times, they'll just go Oops, and move over after you have passed them on the right.

FAILING ALL THIS. IF I still managed to get trapped..... and can't drive out. LOCK THE DOOR's. 911 to start the ball rolling, and continous talking to the dispatcher. Get it all on tape. I don't think I'll have time to take pictures. Will I shoot as the glass is cracked?? Probally not. As the glass starts to fail, is when the safety comes off, and I start defending.

OK. I've said my piece. I'd love to hear whith others have to say about my post.
 
#20 ·
In such situations....and dont we all see them all the time?....I ignore them. And unfortunately, even that can pizz them off....some people are just so beat down in life that they have to come out on top somewhere...and big vehicles and highways seem to be their opportunity.

I avoid as much as possible...slow down, whatever. If, IF they get me into a situation where I cant retreat or escape, such as forced off the road or parked in, I will use either of the lethal weapons I have at my disposal....my vehicle or my firearm. The minute it seems like they are attempting to get into my vehicle....such as bat/hammer/tire iron/fists on my window, they will first see my phone taking their pics & calling 911 and then my firearm aimed at them. And it will be used to prevent their entry into my vehicle. Why would I assume they just want 'to knock me around' and then let me go? Anyone with that poor judgement and such anger issues is a good bet to continue beyond that.
 
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#21 ·
9M...so are you saying that in this situation the BG's would be dead, as opposed to arrested, if you had been the Honda driver? I'd submit that is a big responsibility given the outcome.

My reason for posting was to see where the threshold of pulling the trigger stood with different folks, so for that I appreciate your views. As well, I am in way opting a "right" course of action. As you know we're all accountable for our decisions, so in our own best interest we'd better make sure it is measured with what we can walk away from and be justified.

BTW...I do carry. Springfield XDs, .45 cal. IWB.
 
#23 ·
Maybe they wouldnt be dead...maybe they would have seen me take their pics and call 911 with my phone and then if that didnt stop them, they might have stopped if they saw me draw my firearm.

If they had me *trapped* (and if I could leave that situation, by driving away after they also stopped, I would) and I could not leave and they were taking those steps to attack me? I guess they'd better hope my aim sucks.

The minute I believed that they could disable my vehicle (my only safety) or get into it to get their hands on me....there is an imminent lethal threat to me.

Is it your opinion I should wait until they get their hands on me?
 
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#22 ·
Coming at me with a bat even sitting in my truck, I am fearing for my life. Too old to fight even one guy, no way I'm taking on three without a little help from my girl Ruthanne. On a busy highway, on the shoulder and holeshotting back out into traffic is a really good way to die and take someone else with you while the BG's jump back in their cars and roll away. Threat begins when punk 1 gets out with the bat and approaches. Dial 911 throw the phone on the seat yell to the operator I am being attacked and TCB.
I was thinking while rereading my post whether I would stay seated or jump out to have room to maneuver. Hopefully exiting my vehicle brandishing my weapon might make them turn tail and run. Waiting to get clobbered, not so much.
 
#24 ·
Tango
Your response is out of line with your "considering the outcome" statement. If you ask a person a what if you can't judge their reaction by the actions of another. Each of us would react differently to the situation. What if the Honda owner had been armed? Consider that outcome.
 
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#25 ·
9M...I hear ya, and I'd certainly hope that when you chose to draw and fire that you're aim didn't suck....'cause you felt your life was in danger. OK, I accept that and hope the jury would too, because as you know living in the Puget Sound area, you would be charged.

As for waiting to "get their hands on you", I'd submit that if that were the threshold, a whole lot of us would be in the clinker. You know the old equal force argument.

And as I said I wasn't advocating for any particular response, rather thinking this particular situation was a good one for all of us to consider ahead of time. Most folks don't travel with a gun at their finger tips. It's a right we chose to exercise and with it comes a whole different set of rules. Hope ya agree.

Velo...I agree with your statement. As for if he'd have been armed...bingo, that's exactly what I was hoping we'd think about.

As for my "considering the outcome" statement, my intentions were to hold killing someone and that responsibility against what actually happened in this actual situation. Again, just to hear what others responded as well as provoke thinking ahead of time. This is the type of thing that, as many have pointed out, we could run into if we even just "gesture" on the highway these days.
 
#26 ·
I use the WTH gesture frequently. We have signs that state the far left lane is for passing only. Pet peeve is the idiot who won't get on the gas and actually pass someone when they are only going only slightly faster than the car they are passing. They never look to see how fast the closing rate is on the traffic behind or care if they stack up ten cars with this behavior. They get "the look" when I finally do pass them. There is one guy whom I pass if I'm running late. He gets in the "fast lane" at speed and rides there regardless of how many cars stack up. I don't drive fast, just efficiently.
 
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#28 ·
You'd be surprised what people with a "nothing to lose" mindset will do, or at least try to do to get their point across. Being boxed and forced off the road is a very real possibility.

If it were me, I'd have thrown it in reverse and gunned it. Avoidance, first and foremost. If that option failed, my gun would very much be in-hand. At the first sign of a weapon or an attempt to enter and/or remove me from the vehicle I'd make it clear that I was ready to cash the check they had written.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Disparity of force; cornered; multiple assailants bringing out deadly weaponry; coordinated attack by the group. Utterly lawful to defend using whatever force is required, I'd say. They're bringing it on themselves, and they're putting others in absolute threat of loss of life.

If as claimed in the article, that the hands were raised in an apparently non-threatening "what are you doing" type motion, the actions of the assailants aren't justified in any way, shape or form, and (IMO) the person gesturing didn't provoke or cause a thing, despite the assailant gang taking offense.
 
#33 ·
Quoting from general statute 14-51.2, as it applies in my state:
The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a home, motor vehicle, or workplace, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the home, motor vehicle, or workplace.
Hitting the glass with a club or bat IS attempting an unlawful and forceful entry and I would be well within my rights to use deadly force to stop their attempt. At what point would I draw? At what point would I fire? If they were standing on or beside my trapped vehicle with a raised club threatening to strike, they would be staring at the business end of my gun with full knowledge of what will happen to them should they proceed. The moment that the glass cracks, breaks, or otherwise makes a clear shot, is when I would fire. I would hope to have the presence of mind to take a picture of them making the threat, but even if i don't the physical evidence would speak for itself.
 
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