OC..Why Hassled? - Page 2

OC..Why Hassled?

This is a discussion on OC..Why Hassled? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by nedrgr21 Every interaction btwn LEO's and OC'ers is needlessly initiated by the LEO. How the interaction plays out is on them. Sorry, ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    Every interaction btwn LEO's and OC'ers is needlessly initiated by the LEO. How the interaction plays out is on them.
    Sorry, I couldn't disagree more. In most cases (note I said most, not all) it takes two parties to make it go wrong. When a LEO is following up on a MWAG call, and asks a carrier if (s)he can ask them a couple questions, and they jump into a diatribe about how "the man" is just out to stomp on their 2A rights, and how they don't consent to anything, etc, well sorry, but I would blame the carrier for the outcome if it continued to go bad. Are there some bad situations that are the fault of law enforcement? Of course. But to blame all of the so called "harassment" situations on law enforcement (which is what you did in your above statement) is a case of subjective tunnel vision, and is short sighted, and in the end hurts us all because if we feel we can put all of the blame on "them" (LEO's) then we will never honestly examine our own (carriers generally, and "OC ninjas" specifically) actions and motives. And don't give me the line about about if LEO's were better trained, and expressly told to leave carriers alone, etc, that all carriers' problems would go away. That's overly simplistic. However, I'll gladly listen to you rave on about it, if you will at least concede that the "open carry ninjas" are also a big part of the problem. In any case, your line of thought is simply not an accurate representation of the full scope of the situation.

    If your rights actually are being stomped on, then by all means fight it for all your worth. However IMO, in most cases, an encounter can be wrapped up in just a couple minutes with no one's rights being stomped on. Being asked a couple questions so the LEO can feel you out and get a sense of the situation does not, IMO, count as "stomping on your rights."
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokinFool View Post
    If your rights actually are being stomped on, then by all means fight it for all your worth. However IMO, in most cases, an encounter can be wrapped up in just a couple minutes with no one's rights being stomped on. Being asked a couple questions so the LEO can feel you out and get a sense of the situation does not, IMO, count as "stomping on your rights."
    Respectfully disagree.

    If I am not doing anything unusual, not dressed like Rambo and there's no political or other event (just a few examples, it's all about context) then no, IMO you do not waste my time and go looking for a reason to infringe on my right to OC. Or CC.

    IMO you should be out responding to or looking for actual crimes.

    It's not much different than stopping and questioning anyone wearing a hoodie, is it? And I find it disrespectful to be perceived as a criminal (yes, I know that my feelings are not the issue here) just by exercising a basic right.
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Respectfully disagree.

    If I am not doing anything unusual, not dressed like Rambo and there's no political or other event (just a few examples, it's all about context) then no, IMO you do not waste my time and go looking for a reason to infringe on my right to OC. Or CC.

    IMO you should be out responding to or looking for actual crimes.

    It's not much different than stopping and questioning anyone wearing a hoodie, is it? And I find it disrespectful to be perceived as a criminal (yes, I know that my feelings are not the issue here) just by exercising a basic right.
    That's cool. Disagreeing (respectfully, as you have done) is perfectly ok and is to be expected. I will, in turn, respectfully disagree with you. I would submit that a LEO simply asking you a couple questions does not constitute infringing on your rights. If you choose not to answer those questions, and you turn and start walking away, and if the LEO then detains you against your will, then you may have a case. Does this happen? Of course it does (infrequently) as I have already stated.

    I would also submit that if a person were seen that fit the description of a robbery suspect (hoodie or not) then law enforcement would be shirking their responsibility if they didn't stop and speak with that individual. It's no different with a MWAG call. If the LEO's feel that a MWAG call is credible, they should check it out by at the very least asking the individual a couple questions, which as I said, does not infringe on that individual's rights, IMO.

    Also, I notice that most on this forum are staying away from what I have said in other threads (and again in this one), about "OC ninjas," who, in my opinion are just as responsible for bad encounters as LEO's are. I would hazard a guess that for every legitimate story of an OC'er being harassed, there is a youtube video posted by one of these "OC ninjas." As I said in my previous post, if we are not willing to examine this issue completely (from both sides), and honestly and openly address the problems that "OC ninjas" cause, then we are only hurting ourselves.
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  4. #19
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    He said "we are no different than doctors, lawyers, or any other profession; you have good ones and you have bad ones. We are human just like everyone else"

    I asked "should not LE be held to a higher standard?" His reply..."In a perfect world"
    These are good real-world lessons everyone would do well to remember, LE and non-.

    Still, in the real world, jurisdictions differ in terms of how they handle things. In some, the word from the chief is to take a hard-nosed stance. In some states, the law gets very specific that mere carrying shall not be construed as sufficient cause for anything. Overall, it appears it's getting better. There seem to be far fewer instances of knee-jerk faceplant situations in which folks merely carrying were "hassled."
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  5. #20
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokinFool View Post
    That's cool. Disagreeing (respectfully, as you have done) is perfectly ok and is to be expected. I will, in turn, respectfully disagree with you. I would submit that a LEO simply asking you a couple questions does not constitute infringing on your rights. If you choose not to answer those questions, and you turn and start walking away, and if the LEO then detains you against your will, then you may have a case. Does this happen? Of course it does (infrequently) as I have already stated.

    I would also submit that if a person were seen that fit the description of a robbery suspect (hoodie or not) then law enforcement would be shirking their responsibility if they didn't stop and speak with that individual. It's no different with a MWAG call. If the LEO's feel that a MWAG call is credible, they should check it out by at the very least asking the individual a couple questions, which as I said, does not infringe on that individual's rights, IMO.
    That is why I wrote, "looking for a reason" to infringe on my rights. If there is no reasonable context besides my OC'ing, that is a heavy boot looking for a reason to curtail my right.

    And there was no mention of a crime re: wearing a hoodie...the example is anyone wearing a hoodie, in general. It's about how people are perceived. We discussed this in the thread where the gun shop owner was shot. And people said all people with hoodies (up) should be banned from the gun shop.

    As for OC Ninjas...meh, how are they worse than the legal carrier that pulled a gun on the guy that punched him trying to cut in line at Walmart? Such poor judgement makes us all look bad but do I believe in taking any action? No, because that is an infringement on their rights and I dont really see so many of those that makes it worth more laws that affect us all (I have this opinion on many subjects, not just gun-related).

    Edit: I do understand your frustration with the OC Ninjas, I just have examined them and compartmentalized them previously as I wrote.
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  6. #21
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    That is why I wrote, "looking for a reason" to infringe on my rights. If there is no reasonable context besides my OC'ing, that is a heavy boot looking for a reason to curtail my right.

    And there was no mention of a crime re: wearing a hoodie...the example is anyone wearing a hoodie, in general. It's about how people are perceived. We discussed this in the thread where the gun shop owner was shot. And people said all people with hoodies (up) should be banned from the gun shop.

    As for OC Ninjas...meh, how are they worse than the legal carrier that pulled a gun on the guy that punched him trying to cut in line at Walmart? Such poor judgement makes us all look bad but do I believe in taking any action? No, because that is an infringement on their rights and I dont really see so many of those that makes it worth more laws that affect us all (I have this opinion on many subjects, not just gun-related).

    Edit: I do understand your frustration with the OC Ninjas, I just have examined them and compartmentalized them previously as I wrote.
    Ahh, now we're getting somewhere. So you don't feel that the problems created by bad carriers should be addressed, as it would create more of a burden on carriers and even gun owners in general, but you seem to feel (as many here do) that the issue of OC harassment needs to be addressed, and very strongly. I say that both sides of the issue need to be addressed, and until this happens, we will continue to have problems in this regard.

    Thank you for acknowledging my frustration about OC ninjas. As I have said previously, I feel this is one of the sides of the same problem coin. In order to correct the problem, we need to fix both sides, not just the one that is more comfortable for us to talk about.

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokinFool View Post
    Ahh, now we're getting somewhere. So you don't feel that the problems created by bad carriers should be addressed, as it would create more of a burden on carriers and even gun owners in general, but you seem to feel (as many here do) that the issue of OC harassment needs to be addressed, and very strongly. I say that both sides of the issue need to be addressed, and until this happens, we will continue to have problems in this regard.

    Thank you for acknowledging my frustration about OC ninjas. As I have said previously, I feel this is one of the sides of the same problem coin. In order to correct the problem, we need to fix both sides, not just the one that is more comfortable for us to talk about.
    I didnt say the issue of OC should be addressed by any 'entity.' I said specifically in my first post that *I* would handle it (by reporting any member of LE that questioned me with no reasonable justification.)

    I would not propose any type of beauracratic interference.
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    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    I asked "should not LE be held to a higher standard?"

    His reply..."In a perfect world"

    I found the exchange with him enlightening.
    While we all understand about being human yet there are professions/jobs where people are held to a higher standard. Law enforcement is given latitude in many areas that not afforded to "civilians". So maybe in certain areas law enforcement should be held to a higher standard.
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  9. #24
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    I didnt say the issue of OC should be addressed by any 'entity.' I said specifically in my first post that *I* would handle it (by reporting any member of LE that questioned me with no reasonable justification.)

    I would not propose any type of beauracratic interference.
    I apologize if I didn't make this clear, I actually do understand what you were saying. And I agree that cases of genuine harassment should absolutely be taken up with the offending officer's superiors, and I would even recommend legal action in some cases. I am simply adding that I would also like to find a way of dealing with the ninjas as well, as I strongly feel that they are a big part of the problem.

    I don't know what the ultimate solution to this would be, but I think a good start would be for carriers, as a whole (or at least as a large group, as I know realistically that we can never get all of the carrying community to do so), to condemn such tactics. I admit to being rather pessimistic about this happening, since there don't seem to be many people who are willing to condemn the practice, and in fact there are a lot of people who try to defend the ninjas or at least try to downplay the detrimental effects that are caused by their ninja tactics.

  10. #25
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    So maybe in certain areas law enforcement should be held to a higher standard.
    Absolutely correct just as every person who carries a firearm should be held to a higher standard. Every time one of the "ninjas" appear on youtube that is what we, gun owner/carriers, are compared to and judged by. I, like many others, carry a firearm for self defense nothing more. If it furthers and supports my and everyone else's rights great but the main reason is self protection.

    Yep it is everyone's right to carry, OC, CC or stapled to their forehead but we are all judged by the acts of a few. So whether we like it or not the ******* walking around with the fake RPG or double shoulder rig with two handguns and 12 magazines is now our spokesperson.

    If you want to represent yourself go for it but stop representing me, I will do just fine on my own and would rather not be associated with the ninja's.

    This by no means has anything to do with legitimate OC'ers carrying for personal protection or in a non ninja manner.
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  11. #26
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Wow, so my one line response is "raving" about the issue?????????? And how did we go from a holstered pistol to suspected bank robbers, slung AR's and RPG's? - give ME a freaking break.

    LEO's observe from a distance and decide to not initiate contact all the time, why does a holstered firearm worn by someone casually walking down the street suddenly necessitate a stop? If LEO's would take the same approach as with other observation situations the "OC ninja" would never have anything to complain about, now would they? If they go out "baiting" LEO's and none respond, they'll get bored and find something else to do. It really is that simple. There's enough video evidence of LEO's abusing people and their rights and executing "shows of force" while those people were doing nothing more than exercising their rights to continue shining a light on the situation - that's how change is accomplished. If there were no problems with this issue, we would never see those videos on youtube. For example there was absolutely no reason for the show of force, including a paddy wagon, at the OC meeting in Liberty, MO. While there is bullheadedness displayed on each side, every video depicts OC'ers educated on local laws and LEO's ignorant of those same laws which they are employed to enforce - that's why the OC'ers are free to go at the end of the encounters.

    It really is as simple as 1) there's a guy with an unconcealed holstered pistol 2) is he acting erratic/wild/etc or brandishing said pistol? 3) if no - no contact needed. The root problem is LEO's who are 1) ignorant of the law or 2) promoting their own agenda despite the law. Fix that problem and the others go away. Until that problem is fixed, municipalities will continue pay individual citizens with taxpayer funds. Hey, maybe that's a quicker way to fix the problem - make the LEO's personally liable for such judgements or automatic suspension w/o pay if any decision wrt such charges results in a judgement or settlement

    Smokinfool: So, you're suggesting people be chastised or otherwise punished for exercising their rights, standing up for their rights, and protecting themselves from persecution while doing so?

    Tac: How do you differentiate btwn an OC ninja and a "legitimate" OC'er standing up for their rights in order to keep from going to jail b/c of an officer's ignorance? What is appropriate term for the ignorant LEO's bullying citizens? Check out the vid in the earlier paragraph where KCPD was ready to transport 16 law abiding citizens just trying to enjoy an meal out with family and friends.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    Wow, so my one line response is "raving" about the issue?????????? And how did we go from a holstered pistol to suspected bank robbers, slung AR's and RPG's? - give ME a freaking break.

    LEO's observe from a distance and decide to not initiate contact all the time, why does a holstered firearm worn by someone casually walking down the street suddenly necessitate a stop? If LEO's would take the same approach as with other observation situations the "OC ninja" would never have anything to complain about, now would they? If they go out "baiting" LEO's and none respond, they'll get bored and find something else to do. It really is that simple. There's enough video evidence of LEO's abusing people and their rights and executing "shows of force" while those people were doing nothing more than exercising their rights to continue shining a light on the situation - that's how change is accomplished. If there were no problems with this issue, we would never see those videos on youtube. For example there was absolutely no reason for the show of force, including a paddy wagon, at the OC meeting in Liberty, MO. While there is bullheadedness displayed on each side, every video depicts OC'ers educated on local laws and LEO's ignorant of those same laws which they are employed to enforce - that's why the OC'ers are free to go at the end of the encounters.

    It really is as simple as 1) there's a guy with an unconcealed holstered pistol 2) is he acting erratic/wild/etc or brandishing said pistol? 3) if no - no contact needed. The root problem is LEO's who are 1) ignorant of the law or 2) promoting their own agenda despite the law. Fix that problem and the others go away. Until that problem is fixed, municipalities will continue pay individual citizens with taxpayer funds. Hey, maybe that's a quicker way to fix the problem - make the LEO's personally liable for such judgements or automatic suspension w/o pay if any decision wrt such charges results in a judgement or settlement

    Smokinfool: So, you're suggesting people be chastised or otherwise punished for exercising their rights, standing up for their rights, and protecting themselves from persecution while doing so?

    Tac: How do you differentiate btwn an OC ninja and a "legitimate" OC'er standing up for their rights in order to keep from going to jail b/c of an officer's ignorance? What is appropriate term for the ignorant LEO's bullying citizens? Check out the vid in the earlier paragraph where KCPD was ready to transport 16 law abiding citizens just trying to enjoy an meal out with family and friends.
    This is pretty much the response I expected to get from you. Sad. No, it's not as simple as you would like to make it, and that's part of the problem.

    I do not believe, nor did I say that the carriers are the cause of all the problem encounters. There are indeed legitimate cases of harassment by law enforcement officers, and these cases should be addressed in the strongest possible way. However, the issue is not as black and white as to say that LEO's are responsible for all the bad encounters. This is a very overly simplistic position to take.

    Do I believe we should call out the baiters? Absolutely! But I knew this was not likely to happen, and said so in one of my posts.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    If you want to represent yourself go for it but stop representing me, I will do just fine on my own and would rather not be associated with the ninja's.

    This by no means has anything to do with legitimate OC'ers carrying for personal protection or in a non ninja manner.
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  14. #29
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    Well in regards to the video I stopped watching in the first 20 seconds or so when the title came up in regards to "Police showed up on a MWAG call". A call for service dispatched by a lawful authority, called in by a citizen. The officers did not just say "Hey looky over there" they were called to the scene.
    At what point does the officer not respond? What questions does the dispatcher ask to ensure that the guy peacefully walking down the street with a rifle is not walking to the next store to shoot and kill his ex girlfriend and other employees where he used to work?

    Just as OC'ers have the right to exercise their right to carry other folks have the right to call in to a LE agency to express their concerns. Yes there has to be a balance somewhere but what is it? The first time a dispatcher tells the caller "Miss it is ok open carry is legal in this state and their is nothing to worry about" and the person goes on to commit a crime what do you think would happen to the agency involved and gun rights in general?

    Definition of a ninja OC'er? Look at anyone of dozens of videos, posts on this and other forums. Videos of people carrying a AR and wearing a tactical vest to a steakhouse, then wonder why the police are called? Whether you want to admit it or not this and other stunts, like the fake RPG guy, are what the general public equate to open carry and firearms ownership in general, not the average guy who is carrying a weapon to defend himself. There are posts on this forum of those asking "What type of thigh rig should I use for OC" on other forums of "How should I carry my AR/AK pistol for self defense".
    As I have stated before many of these cases where LE stops people for carrying occur in states where there is not specific laws regarding OC. It is simply that there is nothing on the books to say it is illegal or regulated and the law is left up to interpretation of whomever is dealing with it at the time.

    All I can say is look at California. We will garner attention and shove this down peoples throats until they come around. They came around alright and banned it altogether. Then instead of backing up and regrouping and maybe, just maybe try a different tactic what did they do? Well they banned OC of handguns so I will carry my rifle. Well guess what happened next?

    Like I said before the purpose of carrying a firearm, for me anyway, is for my protection. In the old days of the wild west everyone openly carried a firearm but it was, and still is, a tool, a tool for survival not to show off, not to file a lawsuit or garner attention like some are using it today.

    I am all for exercising your rights but until someone says ok this is getting a little out of hand and this or that action is hurting more than helping the general public, the ones who actually control the vote not gun owners, are going to concentrate on these ninjas who pull these stunts for attention, not personal protection but for attention. From what few seconds I saw of the video they were sitting there eating armed, great, nothing wrong with that but someone obviously found something wrong with it and called. Why not cooperate with them show ID or answer questions and be done with it?

    Yes there needs to me more education on both sides of the fence. Speaking for my area most street cops do not care one way or the other if you are legally carrying a firearm or not. Stopped for speeding? No problem inform the officer you are carrying, show your CPL, and follow his directions of what he wants you to do, get your ticket or warning and go on about your business. But oh no good god this is a violation of my rights I am gonna envoke my 5th, 22nd, 13th and 1st amendment rights and not talk to him, as soon as I am stopped I am gonna call my lawyer and pull out my video camera.

    There has to be a happy medium somewhere. Finding it will be the problem.
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  15. #30
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    I agree with TACMAN we should only carry as we are allowed to. Otherwise, we may upset people and be banned altogether. Matter of fact, that is just wat we need. Ban em all. That way, we wont upset anyone.
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