OC..Why Hassled?

This is a discussion on OC..Why Hassled? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Tacman is right and I'm glad he and a (very) few others are willing to speak up about it. Look, I am in no way ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Tacman is right and I'm glad he and a (very) few others are willing to speak up about it.

    Look, I am in no way against open carry. I OC'd quite a bit until the weather turned cold, and will do so again in the Spring. However, as I have said here before, with rights comes much responsibility.

    I absolutely agree that there are legitimate cases of abuse of powers, or at the very least an ignorance of the law on the part of law enforcement, but considering how many citizens carry a firearm on a daily basis, the number of such cases is very low. Now, I agree that it shouldn't happen at all, and I am all for addressing that issue. But honestly, what good does an OC ninja do for us??? The answer is nothing, except paint us all with the same broad brush. The typical ninja isn't concerned with helping our cause, he is only out to garner attention for himself, and perhaps cash in on a big payday. And the ones who actually believe they are helping are, in my opinion, misguided.

    In short, I will always come down on the side of legal carry, whether open or concealed, by the vast majority of carriers who are simply going about their (legitimate) business, but by the same token, I will always come down against the ninjas. That's my bottom line, and what I have been saying all along.

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array theskunk's Avatar
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    Police have extreme latitude for a confrontation. An organized event would have a positive impact, rather than 15 people showing up at McDonalds with 45s on their hips. And if you are going to do this then at least carry a decent video cam.

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Well in regards to the video I stopped watching in the first 20 seconds or so when the title came up in regards to "Police showed up on a MWAG call". A call for service dispatched by a lawful authority, called in by a citizen. The officers did not just say "Hey looky over there" they were called to the scene.
    At what point does the officer not respond?
    When he observes that the person(s) with a gun is doing nothing other than sitting at a table enjoying a meal with family and friends.

    It's too bad you declined to watch the vid b/c it turns out that the LEO's tried to coerce the manager to throw out the law abiding group of diners - which didn't happen. Is that not unprofessional? The manager informed the LEO's that the only people causing trouble at the diner were the LEO's.

    So, no one has addressed my proposal that LEO's simply observe OC'ers, when it is determined that no criminal activity is in progress they should simply leave. In all these encounters no ID's are handed over and LEO's know nothing more about the OC'er than if they had simply observed them from a distance. If they were planning to commit a crime no info would have been obtained anyway. Common sense dictates that a felon or someone intent on committing a crime is not going to display a weapon while traveling to commit a crime. If LEO's took this approach, what would these OC'ers have to complain about? Also, how about stopping the games with bringing up RPG's, etc and let's stick to holstered pistols.

  5. #34
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    Ok I went back and watched the entire video. Here are the things I noticed.

    The original call was "People entering the Steak and Shake with handguns" called in by someone who was concerned. The call was not "Hey there are guys eating french fries with a holstered gun at the table next to me".

    I could not hear the very first part if the officer asked for I.D. but "Ritchie" shows him I.D. or something and the officer states "I am not concerned with that" then the poster puts in that "They all refused to show I.D." So which is it? Only at about 1:30 into the video do the big, bad OC'ers state "that someone will have to talk to them but I am not showing I.D." Where is it that the officers keep asking for I.D. and people refused? I did not hear or see that part. At no time did the officers go from person to person asking for I.D. as a matter of fact except in very beginning of the video the question of showing I.D. was never mentioned by the officers only the OC'ers.

    I believe the officers approached "Ritchie" because he was at the head of the table and spoke to them as a representative of the group but again the poster sees it as the mean, ole police are ganging up on him. Is it not possible that the officer's were getting close enough to hear him? A one point an officer leans down on the railing with both hands on the rail to speak to him. Obviously the police were looking for one of the guys to draw so they could gun them all down.
    I looked like the officers asked to speak to "Ritchie" away from the table they did not detain, drag him away kicking and screaming, disarm him or put him in cuffs but I guess it is more glamorous to say he was detained.

    The statements in regards to the Paddy Wagon being there to take everyone away is interesting. The transport vans are police units. They respond to calls just like everyone else and yes they transport criminals nowhere did I see the officers with the doors open with leg irons in hand waiting to take people away but again it is more glamorous to say what they did.

    Did I not hear a conversation between guys at the table in regards to carrying an MP5 but "I don't have 20k for the gun or a class 3 license"? Wow that goes beyond carrying a holstered pistol don't ya think?

    The poster gives the impression that the police came there to arrest everyone and violate everyone's rights and so on. It looks like they responded to a call for service, investigated the call, found nothing wrong and left. Unless "Ritchie" was stripped searched off camera or violated in some other way what is wrong? I also noticed the officer did not stop the poster from videotaping his conversation with "Ritchie" but yet the video was stopped. I wonder why? Could it be the officer explained what was going on with the call and said something to the effect, "We understand what you are doing, it is not unlawful but we received a call and had to investigate, enjoy the rest of your meal"? I guess that does not make for a good youtube video though.

    In regards to the manager and his comments. Where is the tape of this? Why in the world would they not videotape the pro 2A manager who stood up to the fascist police harassing God fearing citizens? Again all we have is the statement of the poster.

    In regards to criminals not displaying their weapons before a crime. I seem to remember an event where a bad guy with a rifle walking across a parking lot with his rifle before shooting up a restaurant and killing several people. As a matter of fact there are several still photos and a video of it.

    It is not a game in regards to me mentioning folks carrying AR's at the salad bar, walking around with fake RPG's and so on it is a fact of life. People do it for the shock value nothing more and then post a video of it. They are OC'ers to. You cannot separate the two as they are one in the same and that is what the public sees and associates with open carry and gun ownership.

    I am not against responsible OC in anyway, shape or form but you notice I said responsible open carry. Both sides need education on the subject but you have to realize and officer dispatched to a call has to respond and for every 99 calls received it only takes one to ruin it and create a tragic situation for everyone.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=tacman605;2467255]I could not hear the very first part if the officer asked for I.D. but "Ritchie" shows him I.D. or something and the officer states "I am not concerned with that" then the poster puts in that "They all refused to show I.D." So which is it?
    Like you said, it was "or something" - most likely a list of relevant statutes; but the LEO wasn't interested in that.

    I believe the officers approached "Ritchie" because he was at the head of the table and spoke to them as a representative of the group but again the poster sees it as the mean, ole police are ganging up on him. Is it not possible that the officer's were getting close enough to hear him? A one point an officer leans down on the railing with both hands on the rail to speak to him. Obviously the police were looking for one of the guys to draw so they could gun them all down.
    I looked like the officers asked to speak to "Ritchie" away from the table they did not detain, drag him away kicking and screaming, disarm him or put him in cuffs but I guess it is more glamorous to say he was detained.
    Wow, you sure make some wild assumptions. There was no reason to separate him from the group except to make sure there were no witnesses to what the officer said.


    The statements in regards to the Paddy Wagon being there to take everyone away is interesting. The transport vans are police units. They respond to calls just like everyone else and yes they transport criminals nowhere did I see the officers with the doors open with leg irons in hand waiting to take people away but again it is more glamorous to say what they did.
    Each officer had at least 1 pr of cuffs and probably some zip ties; no leg irons needed.

    Did I not hear a conversation between guys at the table in regards to carrying an MP5 but "I don't have 20k for the gun or a class 3 license"? Wow that goes beyond carrying a holstered pistol don't ya think?
    They were joking around, but way to take things out of context.

    The poster gives the impression that the police came there to arrest everyone and violate everyone's rights and so on. It looks like they responded to a call for service, investigated the call, found nothing wrong and left. Unless "Ritchie" was stripped searched off camera or violated in some other way what is wrong? I also noticed the officer did not stop the poster from videotaping his conversation with "Ritchie" but yet the video was stopped. I wonder why? Could it be the officer explained what was going on with the call and said something to the effect, "We understand what you are doing, it is not unlawful but we received a call and had to investigate, enjoy the rest of your meal"? I guess that does not make for a good youtube video though.
    He explained early in the vid he was pausing it when nothing was occuring, did you want to see the walk back to the table. Why would they need to separate Ritchie to say that?

    In regards to the manager and his comments. Where is the tape of this? Why in the world would they not videotape the pro 2A manager who stood up to the fascist police harassing God fearing citizens? Again all we have is the statement of the poster.
    So, b/c he doesn't have a badge he's lying, right? The guy with the video saw the police coming; there was no way to anticipate what the manager was about to say.

    I am not against responsible OC in anyway, shape or form but you notice I said responsible open carry. Both sides need education on the subject but you have to realize and officer dispatched to a call has to respond and for every 99 calls received it only takes one to ruin it and create a tragic situation for everyone.

    Everyone here has heard 911 calls, they don't proceed like "There's a MWAG", "where?", "police are on the way", end of story. 911 dispatchers ask questions, in the middle of a home invasion they even take the time to ask inane questions. Bet dollars to doughnuts "what is he/are they doing" was asked. When the answer comes back "ordering their food" that info is/should be relayed to responding officers. At that point common sense should take over and the appropriate response would be one officer to address the call, not multiple units, numerous LEO's in the restaurant, and a paddy wagon. The latter is just a huge waste of resources and nothing more than a form of intimidation.

  7. #36
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    Well you can bet your dollars to doughnuts on what the dispatcher asked or did not ask just as I can state that the officers did not push the issue of ID, "Ritchie" volunteered to be the spokesman for the group, no rights were violated, no one was detained, no one was arrested and everyone lived happily ever after.

    The officers were dispatched to a call of "People entering the Steak and Shake with handguns" period, plain and simple. They responded, investigated and left.

    You did however avoid answering the specific points brought up in my response but what some ever. You have your opinion and I have mine. We both viewed the same video and saw it in a different light but isn't that what makes this country great?
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Well you can bet your dollars to doughnuts on what the dispatcher asked or did not ask just as I can state that the officers did not push the issue of ID, "Ritchie" volunteered to be the spokesman for the group, no rights were violated, no one was detained, no one was arrested and everyone lived happily ever after.

    The officers were dispatched to a call of "People entering the Steak and Shake with handguns" period, plain and simple. They responded, investigated and left.

    You did however avoid answering the specific points brought up in my response but what some ever. You have your opinion and I have mine. We both viewed the same video and saw it in a different light but isn't that what makes this country great?
    That's the main problem with things like this. Two different people can see, or hear, or read the same thing and come away with different views of what happened. Most times this is because we all, as human beings, go into it with a preconceived notion of the events and how we feel about them.

    Given the information that actually is available from watching the video, I tend to see it similarly to tacman. I'm sure that says something about me, just as the fact that others see it the other way says something about them. What it says is that it's all but impossible to view something without processing it through our own biased filters, which pretty much guarantees the end result in our minds. That's just human nature, and it's very difficult to get around it. I do know that LEO's receive training (or at least used to) in how to turn off their own filters, and see things more objectively (yes, I do realize that some of them aren't able to do this in every contact), which I know has an effect on how I view these stories. We all just need to remember that our mindset and experiences color our takeaways from these examples.

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    You did however avoid answering the specific points brought up in my response but what some ever.
    Actually I answered quite a few of your's (sorry, couldn't keep track of all the ???), but mine remains unanswered. Right back at ya

  10. #39
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    Nedrgr21.

    First I will apologize for not reading your entire response. I thought you had simply copied and pasted and did not see your answers at the bottom of each paragraph and simply read the last thing you typed. Long day. Anyways.

    Well we will just have to agree to disagree I guess, unless you were sitting at the table you do not know what was shown to the officer nor what was said anymore than I do so I guess we both have our assumptions.

    I still think the officers ask "Ritchie" to speak to them in a quieter place since he was the apparent spokesperson but I guess that does not fit into the "Keep the OC brother down" theory of thinking. Yes I understand he turned the camera off when nothing was going on however there was something going on when he walked up and the officer was talking to "Ritchie" but yet that was edited out.

    Again you see things one way I see things another. You preach about common sense so I would say common sense would say when 15 people walk into a restaurant carrying handguns and people are not used to seeing that then common sense says someone is going to call the Po Po. The call was "Men entering Steak and Shake carrying guns" so the police responded accordingly. You live there so ask for the 911 tape or transcript under the FOIA and see what the caller said or dispatcher stated or asked that should clear up any issues.

    You are correct there was no way to predict what the manager would say all we have to go on is what the poster stated. The poster stated that the police got upset or whatever when everyone refused to show ID, again unless I miss something except for the first 5 seconds of video where "Ritchie" showed them something it was not mentioned again but that does not make for good youtube videos so why would you not video what someone in support of what you were doing said?

    Either or it comes down to we each have our own opinions.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Here's another vid of the same meet showing that Ritchie tried to show the LEO a business card that covers OC laws in MO and the LEO asking for ID. What was "going on" wasn't edited out - the officer stopped talking when the guy with the camera approached. I'm not going to spend my time and $$ to get a transcript to flesh out a very reasonable assumption, especially when you still refuse to address my points while trying to call me out for not addressing your's when, in fact, I did.

  12. #41
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    You know what you are absolutely right. This a a horrendous violation of civil rights and an abuse of police powers and they should pay through the nose for it.

    So what is the status on the lawsuit filed? Surely this has emotionally scared the members of the OC group and the public must be outraged and holding protests. How is the children's therapy going? It must be horrible that they cannot even look at a police officer now without retreating inside their inner shell.

    I know this must be creating a financial hardship on you and your family because surely you emptied your bank account and donated it to them for the legal defense. Oh wait you already said you would not put forth your time or your money to verify anything.

    If you or they think this was such a miscarriage of justice file suit. Period. Find a lawyer who will take it and go to federal court. Good luck with that. The officers acted within the scope of the law. They responded to a call for service and investigated the call. Nothing more. There were no damages sustained so therefore no breach of the law occurred so at this point I am pretty much done with the discussion. The ball is in your court so put up and file a lawsuit or quit whining about how these guys were picked on.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Wow, such drama.

  14. #43
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    Yep but it is all in the name of entertainment.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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