Gun Show Double Standard

This is a discussion on Gun Show Double Standard within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Yep..a real bummer...they have the same double standard here at the Sheriff's Office.......

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Thread: Gun Show Double Standard

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array dben002's Avatar
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    Yep..a real bummer...they have the same double standard here at the Sheriff's Office....
    Ksgunner likes this.
    There are two types of people who carry concealed weapons...Responsible ones and Irresponsible ones...which are you...

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array Thunder71's Avatar
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    Just because you carry doesn't make you a competent firearms handler.

    If training and testing were required to carry it may change things, but that's a whole other issue and thread. :)
    tacman605 likes this.

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array Alex_C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    A concealed firearm, for defensive purposes, should not be displayed at a gun show either.
    Bingo.

    Loaded carry gun only leaves the holster when you need to justifiably defend yourself with lethal force, not to show Mr. Bubba your new grips or see if a new holster fits. In MI, you're taught that (or should be) during the required training in order to get your CPL in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1 old 0311 View Post
    That guy has balls. I wouldn't stand next to that sign...

  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    There's no way around it but to eviscerate the basic property rights folks have, for controlling who comes onto property, if carrying's going to be held to trump them.

    Short of fully blasting any and all firearms-related laws off the books and fully enshrining the 2A in its proper place (which ain't gonna happen anytime soon, IMO), there isn't any way I can see to acknowledge both the right of the property owner to control the property and still acknowledge the right of the carrier to be armed (just not present on that property, if desiring to remain armed). Can you?
    Unfortunately, this is an age old problem with no easy solution, as the many debates that we've had on this forum indicate. From those discussions, the only thing resembling a viable answer that I have been able to come up with is the concept of a tiered permit system. If we consider the current permit system and constitutional carry to be the lowest common denominator, that is subject to various restrictions, I think that we need to look at the reasoning for the restrictions and deal with those reasons instead of just applying restrictions. The gun show being a case in point, where there is concern that Bubba may pull his EDC out to fit it to a holster and have an ND with it. Obviously, there is no fixing stupid, but if one obtains a more advanced training and certification then we have addressed part of the concern as the training to obtain such advanced certification would require Bubba to acknowledge and demonstrate that they understand this type of action is a no go and why. Naturally, there would have to be consequences for negligence and improper action. I also see training and certification as being a fair solution to the restrictions problem because it puts the burden of obtaining the training on those that desire it. We don't hear of problems with police officers carrying in public places that are otherwise restricted, presumably because of their more extensive training, background investigations, and certifications, as well as the consequences of bad behavior and I am proposing something along those lines for private citizens too. I for example, work at a university, which is a disarmament zone. I would be more than willing to attend optional training and demonstrate that I am not going to pose a safety hazard if it were to mean that this restriction would be removed for me.

    Of course there is still the issue of whose rights trump whose, but I think that this approach could be used to address the legitimate safety concerns, especially with regards to property that is open to the public. I do consider property that is open to the public to be different than a work environment business (e.g. a factory) and different still than residences and I think that the optimal balance of rights would need to be determined.
    sensei2 likes this.

  6. #35
    Senior Member Array mastercapt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    Just because you carry doesn't make you a competent firearms handler.

    If training and testing were required to carry it may change things, but that's a whole other issue and thread. :)
    I agree 1000%. The training issue is whats throwing the right to carry in all states issue.

    Because someone is a "Barney Fife" around weapons, does NOT preclude him from a carry permit. He is what we are being Protected" against at a show.
    Here in Florida the same applies to our gun shows. May even be a law, I don't know.....
    Besides. I do not feel unsafe at gun shows although mine is unloaded. The show atendees are usually off duty or even on duty LEOs and armed concealed. They attend, free of charge by showing their LEO credentials.
    BTW all the gun shops have signs about "no loaded weapons".

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Had a friend ata gun show was looking at guns on a vendors rable when he stopped at a pump shotgun,picked it up and shucked out 4 live shells on the table he noticed the shiny brass in the mag tube where there shouldn't be any in an unloaded gun,the Vendor claimed he had just bought it from a guy that was selling it.If somebody else had picked it up worked the action and pulled the trigger it would have gotten real quiet for about 5 seconds before all hell broke loose
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  8. #37
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    The big phony the runs most gun shows in this state allows no carry at all . They get none of my money, plus after you pay tp park payto get just to over pay on products . No thanks

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    I agree that the proverbial idiot who pulls his loaded gun out, says, "Hey look what I've got...", BANG, is a problem. In this regard I can understand the no weapons stance. I am also somewhat disappointed by it because it amounts to the same tactic as used by the antis of legislation bans for "safety", that most here acknowledge don't work at best and create crime empowerment zones at worse. The same old reasons are given: lack of education, experience, responsibility, etc. Is this not at least part of what the whole permit process is supposed to be about? Are we saying that the permit process is inadequate? For that matter, this whole argument could be extended to almost any situation. We have to ban weapons because: there are lots of people, some people may be drinking, emotions may run high, we trust their level of training, fill in your excuse of choice. How then do we also reconcile this against the position of 'we should do away with permits because the 2nd-A is the only permit I need'?

    The net result is that while I do see the idiot being a problem, I don't see legislated disarmament as being a desirable solution.
    What about states that have constitutional carry, or OC without a permit is legal? The permit process does nothing there.

    A gun show sponsor has nothing to do with legislated disarmament. It is his right to set and enforce rules on the property he is controlling. They also are not disarming anyone. While they may be restricting how you can carry a firearm, they do not restrict the carrying of knives or less than lethal weapons.
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  10. #39
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    I agree that the proverbial idiot who pulls his loaded gun out, says, "Hey look what I've got...", BANG, is a problem. In this regard I can understand the no weapons stance. I am also somewhat disappointed by it because it amounts to the same tactic as used by the antis of legislation bans for "safety", that most here acknowledge don't work at best and create crime empowerment zones at worse. The same old reasons are given: lack of education, experience, responsibility, etc. Is this not at least part of what the whole permit process is supposed to be about? Are we saying that the permit process is inadequate? For that matter, this whole argument could be extended to almost any situation. We have to ban weapons because: there are lots of people, some people may be drinking, emotions may run high, we trust their level of training, fill in your excuse of choice. How then do we also reconcile this against the position of 'we should do away with permits because the 2nd-A is the only permit I need'? The net result is that while I do see the idiot being a problem, I don't see legislated disarmament as being a desirable solution.
    Noway2. The problem is in many states there is no training required, no classes to take nothing more then a form to fill out and shazam!!!! you are now a CCW holder.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    I've taken my gun into gun shows...yes it was zip tied. However they did it as I walked in and I had it cut when I walked out and reloaded.

    Unless you consider a gun show a place where you are likely to confront actual crime, you are probably ok with your gun temporarily disabled. I consider it more likely a place of negligent discharge and that does make me somewhat uncomfortable...but my 'loaded' gun wouldnt protect me from that.
    Fortune favors the bold.

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    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    Unfortunately, this is an age old problem with no easy solution, as the many debates that we've had on this forum indicate. From those discussions, the only thing resembling a viable answer that I have been able to come up with is the concept of a tiered permit system. If we consider the current permit system and constitutional carry to be the lowest common denominator, that is subject to various restrictions, I think that we need to look at the reasoning for the restrictions and deal with those reasons instead of just applying restrictions. The gun show being a case in point, where there is concern that Bubba may pull his EDC out to fit it to a holster and have an ND with it. Obviously, there is no fixing stupid, but if one obtains a more advanced training and certification then we have addressed part of the concern as the training to obtain such advanced certification would require Bubba to acknowledge and demonstrate that they understand this type of action is a no go and why. Naturally, there would have to be consequences for negligence and improper action. I also see training and certification as being a fair solution to the restrictions problem because it puts the burden of obtaining the training on those that desire it. We don't hear of problems with police officers carrying in public places that are otherwise restricted, presumably because of their more extensive training, background investigations, and certifications, as well as the consequences of bad behavior and I am proposing something along those lines for private citizens too. I for example, work at a university, which is a disarmament zone. I would be more than willing to attend optional training and demonstrate that I am not going to pose a safety hazard if it were to mean that this restriction would be removed for me.

    Of course there is still the issue of whose rights trump whose, but I think that this approach could be used to address the legitimate safety concerns, especially with regards to property that is open to the public. I do consider property that is open to the public to be different than a work environment business (e.g. a factory) and different still than residences and I think that the optimal balance of rights would need to be determined.
    A cop in this state left a loaded gun within reach of his 2 kids in his car "just for a minute.' The boy accidentally killed his sister.

    There is no 'bar' high enough to make everyone safe. (That is just one example).

    There is no data that shows that states with fewer or no requirements for CC permits have a higher rate of crime by permit holders OR negligence. The assumption that 'no requirements' means no one gets training or is less competant isnt substantiated.

    I dont particularly believe more 'rules' fix stupid or careless.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  13. #42
    Senior Member Array jblives2ride's Avatar
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    It wouldn't surprise me if the sellers are putting on a show...(no ammo/ not loaded) hear at the gun shows noone is allowed a loaded gun
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  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    <snip>

    Are you kidding me!??? No guns? At a gun show?

    Further; the vendors, no less than 30 of them, are all OC'ing w/o the the wrap!

    I see so many issues at stake here I don't know where to start.
    I'm no 2nd amendment heavy, but I believe the 2A is a limit on federal and state powers, but not on private parties.

    I don't have a problem with disarming at a gun show. Not a big deal to me; just a private party exercising a property right...

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    I'm always on edge at gun shows. I feel a little bit better knowing that people aren't (supposed to be) walking around with loaded weapons and whipping them out to show off, etc.

    This is because as a few of said already, just because you happen to be carrying or own weapons, doesn't make you a responsible and knowledgeable owner.
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  16. #45
    VIP Member Array SpencerB's Avatar
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    The only gun shows I have been to have signs stating if you are carrying concealed to keep it that way.

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