Denied Conceal Carry permit, how to go about the Appeal process?

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Thread: Denied Conceal Carry permit, how to go about the Appeal process?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Bottom line, get to know one of the attorney's recommended here, or another one if you find one you like. Your attorney is your friend in cases such as this, and can help you get this resolved.

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  3. #17
    Member Array Jgriner's Avatar
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    Does it hurt, to just go though the appeal process on your own first, save the money, attempt it first just go and make your case.

    If you fail, you could always reapply with an attorney, or after you get this expunged.

    just my 2cents, but im no attorney.
    Jess_Lynn_SigSa likes this.
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  4. #18
    New Member Array Jess_Lynn_SigSa's Avatar
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    I got my denial letter today..

    So I've been doing a lot of reading on this topic. I have also been recommended Derek DeBrosse a good few times so
    far. I will make a phone call to him tomorrow. (I've already wrote him an e-mail).

    I hope that some of your are wrong in your thoughts on Adjudication Withheld. I've already contacted the Court house is Florida were my case was at & they are sending final 'official' certified documents to the Sheriff to show that the case is not pending, and closed with Adjudication Withheld


    When I choose to go the route I did (in reference to the case) I went the "cheaper" route of settling with Adjudication Withheld
    instead of going through with a full hearing w/ a jury because of what Adjudication Withheld meant when I completed all of the
    court requirements ... If indeed that wasn't the case- then I feel 'tricked'.
    Something interesting I read that leaves me a bit of hope. (it was on a forum, responding to someone else)

    "Unless you had "adjudication withheld" you are still convicted as far as the Feds are concerned.
    So without Adjudication Withheld - Expungements wont return your civil rights, but not the right to own or possess a firearm
    or ammunition.
    The biggest problem is what the FEDS consider is a proper expungement. You can be clean at the state level but that original
    arrest and conviction is still in NCIC. You forget, NCIC is a database operated by the FBI, the federal government. They do NOT
    have to pay attention to any state court, they do what their regulations and the federal code tells them. But the States recognize
    other states laws.
    The only thing that might do something is to send them a certified copy of the court's judgment or order."

    -With that being said, Since the background check went through the NCIC by the FBI then there is a possibility that the Sheriff in
    Ohio did not know about the Adjudication Withheld. If states have to recognize other States laws, then that might be my out.

    any thoughts?


    Here's two intriguing court cases dealing with this topic.

    from: State vs Willis (1991)
    U.S. Court of Appeals18 USC 922 (a) (20) states that "conviction" within the meaning of Section 922 (g) ( 1) is to be determined in accordance with the law of the jurisdiction in which the preceding was held.
    Florida law provides that a conviction requires either an adjudication of guilt by verdict or a plea of guilty. A nolo contendere plea ,however,does not ammount to a confession of guilt,thus ,is not a conviction under Florida law.Garron vs. State 528 So.2d 353,360 (Fla.1988)

    (Sec 922 g 1 is the basic felons cant posses a firearm law)

    also:

    from : State vs. Chubbick (2001)
    US 11th Circuit Court of Appeals.....we construe "conviction' to mean adjudication of guilt.Where adjudication has been withheld,the offender is not a convicted felon......for the purposes of the felon in possesion of a firearms statue,a defendent must actually be adjudicated guilty to be a "convicted felon"

  5. #19
    New Member Array Sera63's Avatar
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    Jess_Lynn_SigSa Wrote: The biggest problem is what the FEDS consider is a proper expungement. You can be clean at the state level but that original
    arrest and conviction is still in NCIC. You forget, NCIC is a database operated by the FBI, the federal government. They do NOT
    have to pay attention to any state court, they do what their regulations and the federal code tells them. But the States recognize
    other states laws.
    IANAL, but that is not my understanding of federal law, or the FBI's responsibility. While federal law imposes a lifetime ban on handgun possession and ownership for all convicted felons, it also allows states to have a restoration/expungement process. For those states that have these processes, the fed lifetime ban is superceded by the states' right to grant a restoration of citizenship. Therefore, if a person has received a full restoration of citizenship and/or expungement, the FBI (and NCIC) are required to make that notation as well. The feds cannot, legally, bar you from possession. So, a conviction and restoration in, say, Tennessee should be recognized by all other states. And it is definitely recognized by the feds.

    Now, if a particular state does not recognize the restoration/expungement process, the individual may well be out of luck. The best opportunity to find out is to contact a reputable and knowledgeable attorney. Just my .01-1/2 cents
    Jess_Lynn_SigSa likes this.

  6. #20
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    Ohio's background checks for CHL's are run through the BCI, not NCIC. I am not sure how they handle the processes for out of state portions of the background check, but, BCI is the agency responsible for the checks. I do know that they charge more if you haven't been a resident of Ohio for the past 5 years in order to cover the extra costs for out of state checks.

    It is also worth noting that the requirements for an Ohio CHL are more strict than the requirements to buy guns, which would be why you were able to buy guns, but denied.

    It might be worth talking to the sheriff, out of the 4 sheriffs/counties in the Greater Cincinnati Area, some are more CHL friendly than other. None of them is necessarily hostile to CHL's, some of them just seem to support it a bit more.

    Ohio does not have a provision to expunge records, we have a process by which they are basically sealed. But, as a shall issue state, those records aren't supposed to impact the decision. The sheriff can see those records, but won't take them into account.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

  7. #21
    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jess_Lynn_SigSa View Post
    I moved to Cincinnati Ohio from Florida back in April 2012. I applied for my permit 49 days ago. I called today & I was told that i got denied in Ohio for my CCL. I'm confused because I recently was able to buy 2 guns with this last 45+ days. I haven't received the denial letter as of yet.
    I was told I was denied because I had previous charge, (but that charge never turned into a conviction due to it being -Adjudication Withheld felony in Florida)
    (The charge was not for any type of drugs, violence, or anything dealing with a child, or weapons). (Adjudication Withheld means a person is not found guilty legally by the court. The whole premise of an adjudication withheld judgment is that it enables, upon completion of the probation requirements, for an individual to clear his or her name for the charges brought against them. In essence, the adjudication withheld process simply defers punishment, a guilty ruling & a permanent status on
    the individual’s record. Upon completion, the individual will be cleared of all charges and will be free from punishment. By withholding the adjudication of guilt the
    court is not convicting you of the crime. If the offense is a felony you will not lose your civil rights. Having the adjudication of guilt withheld also leaves you eligible
    to have your criminal history record sealed or expunged).

    When I choose to go the route I did (in reference to the case) I went the "cheaper" route of settling with Adjudication Withheld instead of going through with a full hearing w/ a jury because of what Adjudication Withheld meant... I can legally check "NO" on Applications that ask if you're a convicted felon

    I'm so confused on what happened. I haven't had any issues before in reference to the out come of backgrounds checks.

    So if this is the case, why was I denied & what should i do?
    Check on what data is considered at least potentially prohibitive on the NICS database. I have heard that NICS contains other than convictions: quite a few items including records of indictments, orders of protection etc; if it does that may be the reason, or the local area/State may have its own list of reasons to deny. That does not necessarily mean with explanation you can't be approved, but it may mean an initial denial. What the next steps would be I don't now if it was the latter possibility of a review. Probably an area attorney could help at least with information in a consult. Best find out more information from the area where the denial occurred. Then you'll know if appeal is possible and how to go about it.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Just curious...is Ohio Shall Issue or May Issue?

    And good luck.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  9. #23
    New Member Array Jess_Lynn_SigSa's Avatar
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    ^^ Besides speeding tickets, I have nothing else on my record. I'm only 26, so not too many years to have something slip on my record.

    I've briefly spoke by e-mail to one of the lawyers mentioned above.
    He said it could be as simple as clarifying to the sheriff -what happened. (that's all he said in reference to my situation)
    He also said that an appeal is not just a letter -it's court filings... Essentially I would be filing a lawsuit against the Sheriff.
    However, the Law does allow me to appear before the Sheriff and contest the action. Now i'm even more confused on how this works.
    Sadly, I cannot afford 2,000 to retain this lawyer so taking that route is no bueno.


    Buckeye .45- You wrote
    "It might be worth talking to the sheriff, out of the 4 sheriffs/counties in the Greater Cincinnati Area, some are more CHL friendly than other.
    None of them is necessarily hostile to CHL's, some of them just seem to support it a bit more."

    Do you know how I would be able to speak with the Sheriff? Also, wouldn't it have to be the Sheriff that denied my CCL? The Sheriff that my appeal has to be adressed to is Major James R. Dattilo.

  10. #24
    Member Array MrsHB's Avatar
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    An interesting 2008 article in the FL Bar Journal:

    Bar Journal Article
    Withhold of Adjudication: What Everyone Needs to Know
    Many of us who regularly practice criminal law have traditionally viewed a withhold of adjudication as a logical compromise for the amicable resolution of criminal cases. In those cases, the defendant consents to the payment of fines and a term of probation in exchange for the state’s acquiescence of a withhold of adjudication. Once the term of probation is successfully completed, the court is divested of jurisdiction and there is no adjudication of guilt...

    The benefit of the withhold has been the focus of attack in recent times. Specifically, limiting language has been written into a number of statutes that voids the advantage of the withhold provision...

    Government agencies have also embedded provisions within their employment regulations, which specifically indicate that a plea and a judgment, regardless of whether adjudication was withheld or not, is considered a conviction and may subject an employee to sanctions including termination.10 Furthermore, entities outside Florida, including federal entities, do not recognize the withhold of adjudication since there are no parallel provisions. This effect is most dramatically manifested in federal prosecutions for felon in possession of a firearm where the withhold of adjudication of a Florida State felony may satisfy the predicate requirement of a felony conviction.11 Curiously, the Southern District of Florida seems to repeatedly hold that a withhold is not a conviction which can be treated as a predicate for a felon in possession of a firearm under 18 U.S.C. 922.12 Under the same reasoning, the criminal history calculation within the advisory federal sentencing guidelines calculates a withhold as a prior sentence for the assessment of criminal history points.13
    "...people who carry a gun understand that they are arming themselves against a very unlikely event... People who arm themselves are not confused about the odds. They are concerned about the stakes. -Kathy Jackson
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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jess_Lynn_SigSa View Post
    ^^ Besides speeding tickets, I have nothing else on my record. I'm only 26, so not too many years to have something slip on my record.

    I've briefly spoke by e-mail to one of the lawyers mentioned above.
    He said it could be as simple as clarifying to the sheriff -what happened. (that's all he said in reference to my situation)
    He also said that an appeal is not just a letter -it's court filings... Essentially I would be filing a lawsuit against the Sheriff.
    However, the Law does allow me to appear before the Sheriff and contest the action. Now i'm even more confused on how this works.
    Sadly, I cannot afford 2,000 to retain this lawyer so taking that route is no bueno.


    Buckeye .45- You wrote
    "It might be worth talking to the sheriff, out of the 4 sheriffs/counties in the Greater Cincinnati Area, some are more CHL friendly than other.
    None of them is necessarily hostile to CHL's, some of them just seem to support it a bit more."

    Do you know how I would be able to speak with the Sheriff? Also, wouldn't it have to be the Sheriff that denied my CCL? The Sheriff that my appeal has to be adressed to is Major James R. Dattilo.
    Just to clarify, I am not a lawyer, and absolutely nothing I say should be construed as legal advice. Verify anything that I say through other sources, free advice is worth what you pay for it.

    The Sheriff is a public servant, call his office and request a meeting with him, and plead your case. The sheriff you applied with is the largest of the 4, so gaining access might take some work, but it should be do-able. I do believe that it would have to be the sheriff that denied the appointment that you meet with. Major Datillo is not the Sheriff, he is in charge of the records division. Every county has one actual sheriff, who is an elected official. Sheriff's have to be available to meet with people requesting Temporary Emergency Licenses within a short time period, so they are reachable.


    Your denial letter should have more information about the appeals process.

    I do believe that contacting either the Buckeye Firearms Association, or Ohioans For Concealed Carry could be worth your time. Both are very strong pro-gun organizations in the state, and we would not have the current laws we do, including concealed carry, without them.

    Here is a list of disqualifying items from the Clermont County Sheriff's website, that may help you: http://www.clermontsheriff.org/CCWDisqualifiers.pdf

    I am teaching a CHL class tomorrow, and the rest of my instructors have been teaching for a little longer than I have, I will ask them what they know about the denial/appeas process.

    Just curious...is Ohio Shall Issue or May Issue?

    And good luck.
    Shall issue
    Jess_Lynn_SigSa likes this.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

  12. #26
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    In talking with my fellow instructors today at our course, they said that most similar situations they know of are a result of mis-communication somewhere along the way.

    Their input was to contact the authorities down in FL, and make sure the disposition of your case there. Make sure all probation requirements were met and completed.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
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  13. #27
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    Expunctions won't show up. That is what an expunction is - erasing the record. An order of non disclosure is often what people receive, but mistake for an expunction.
    An Expunged record won't show up if an Employer does a background check,but in the case of a Criminal search by an LE Agency such as Tx DPS regarding a background check for CHL it will show up.I know my record was expunged,they wouldn't release any documents until I showed up with my DL to prove I was the Individual for the records being sought.Tx DPS also sent me a notice that the Background check showed an arrest in 1991 for a felony,I was found not guilty at trial,but they wanted the Court records showing Case and Disposition
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  14. #28
    New Member Array Jess_Lynn_SigSa's Avatar
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    Wow guys, You really are bringing up a lot of good ideas, and points. I talked to another lawyer this am, He said a lot on the lines of what you both said. He said I should contact my FL lawyer & have him contact the dept. who charged me, & have them make any changes to the disposition that might be
    wrong. He also said my appeal letter needs to focus on what happened -in reference to the reason why I was denied. He suggested hand delivering it.
    (as well as mailing it). I know that the court house in FL are sending the documents on Tuesday, I know she's sending my granted motion to terminate
    probation at the 1/2 point, & that the case details/ timeline- as well as it showing that everything is closed, satisfactory.

    For the past hour i've been searching online & it does seem like it will be difficult to get to speak one on one with Sheriff Simon L. Leis, Jr. I can't find any direct contact info for him or his immediate office. I hope I'll be able to fully "cross my T's & dot my i's" before the 15 days are up... There's a lot of
    simi- complex stuff to be handled in such a crucial, yet short amount of time. *Crosses fingers*
    After all of this is said & done, I def. will be looking into sealing my record, I just wish I would have known what kind of trouble this would have caused
    me before now, if I did- my record would have already been sealed.
    Thank you all for being so responsive & supportive.. It truly means a ton.

    It's hard moving to a far away state (Ohio from FL) were you know no one & have absolutely NO resources when you're in a shitty dilemma.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jess_Lynn_SigSa View Post
    Wow guys, You really are bringing up a lot of good ideas, and points. I talked to another lawyer this am, He said a lot on the lines of what you both said. He said I should contact my FL lawyer & have him contact the dept. who charged me, & have them make any changes to the disposition that might be
    wrong. He also said my appeal letter needs to focus on what happened -in reference to the reason why I was denied. He suggested hand delivering it.
    (as well as mailing it). I know that the court house in FL are sending the documents on Tuesday, I know she's sending my granted motion to terminate
    probation at the 1/2 point, & that the case details/ timeline- as well as it showing that everything is closed, satisfactory.

    For the past hour i've been searching online & it does seem like it will be difficult to get to speak one on one with Sheriff Simon L. Leis, Jr. I can't find any direct contact info for him or his immediate office. I hope I'll be able to fully "cross my T's & dot my i's" before the 15 days are up... There's a lot of
    simi- complex stuff to be handled in such a crucial, yet short amount of time. *Crosses fingers*
    After all of this is said & done, I def. will be looking into sealing my record, I just wish I would have known what kind of trouble this would have caused
    me before now, if I did- my record would have already been sealed.
    Thank you all for being so responsive & supportive.. It truly means a ton.

    It's hard moving to a far away state (Ohio from FL) were you know no one & have absolutely NO resources when you're in a shitty dilemma.
    Yes, of the 4 in greater Cincinnat, Si Leis is probably the hardest one to get direct contact with. Because of how necessarily large his department is, there are a lot of layers of bureaucracy, and he is very busy. He is also retiring in the very near future, and I am sure busy preparing things to hand off to the incoming sheriff.

    What contact info does your denial letter have? It should have someone to contact at the department.

    Best of luck to you, let us know how it turns out.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

  16. #30
    New Member Array Jess_Lynn_SigSa's Avatar
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    there's no phone numbers-- only this:

    Hamilton County Sheriff's Office
    ATTN: Major James R. Dattilo
    1000 Sycamore Street, Room 100
    Cincinnati, Ohio 45202

    Which is the place the appeal letter needs to get to

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