Another Employee's Reward for Stopping a Crime

This is a discussion on Another Employee's Reward for Stopping a Crime within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by preachertim Who gets the comp if you are dead? Brilliant!!! This is why they will take our rights if we keep living ...

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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by preachertim View Post
    Who gets the comp if you are dead? Brilliant!!! This is why they will take our rights if we keep living by something motivated by money and not Morals.
    You put morals above money. I put wisdom above money. With due respect to the corporate fiduciary duty to profit, there shouldn't be a conflict between morals and wisdom.
    It's not who is my beneficiary if I'm dead, it's who benefits from my wise moral concern in my daily good life.
    Welcome, Aunt Colleen!
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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  3. #107
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    Nobody said separate them it is just that what he did was brave and we call it unwise. Let me play the otherside it has been said. What if the robber had a gun or was actually doing something un Criminal and did not say please. Why would you allow the line in the sand to be so close to Money? I can only speak my opinion . Does not have to be yours. Being a criminal is a dangerous occupation that should never draw me into the realm of danger. Trying to make a living and a guy sticks a gun in your face. He chose that route not me. I would rather live with the unwise choice and still be Alive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    You put morals above money. I put wisdom above money. With due respect to the corporate fiduciary duty to profit, there shouldn't be a conflict between morals and wisdom.
    It's not who is my beneficiary if I'm dead, it's who benefits from my wise moral concern in my daily good life.
    Welcome, Aunt Colleen!
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  4. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    Welcome, Aunt Colleen!
    Thank you.

  5. #109
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    Another Employee's Reward for Stopping a Crime

    Quote Originally Posted by Colleen View Post
    Just curious. How is it that he did not handle it in the best way he could have?
    Generally speaking, it is unwise to re-enter a hostile location once one has gotten away and to safety. Part of this has to do with citizens often not having the training to handle such a situation. The other part of it is legal liability in terms of self defense in that once he left the building he was no longer in mortal peril and consequently no longer had justification for use of deadly force. If there were other potential victims present, the alter ego rule may prevail in a legal sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJon10125 View Post
    What is the saying, No good deed goes unpunished?
    One of my personal favorites...

    Seems to apply to me quite often

    "Death is lighter than a feather, but Duty is heavier than a mountain" Robert Jordan
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  7. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    Generally speaking, it is unwise to re-enter a hostile location once one has gotten away and to safety. Part of this has to do with citizens often not having the training to handle such a situation. The other part of it is legal liability in terms of self defense in that once he left the building he was no longer in mortal peril and consequently no longer had justification for use of deadly force. If there were other potential victims present, the alter ego rule may prevail in a legal sense.
    So this is how you would have handled it yourself? I could understand not re-entering while still unprotected. But reentering with protection and knowing the layout and knowing it was only the robber and the manager in the store with the manager on his knees at the safe, the risk was minimal and saving his manager gave him justification to use deadly force. Anyone who understands criminals and has had the training to understand criminals knows the greater percentage of them are weak and scared people who bully but run when confronted. In Virginia, legally Devin would have had the right to shoot this robber.
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  8. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I respect your point of view but the first part I bolded is simply not true. The vast majority of robberies are incident free (injury or death) if the employee is compliant and the corporations know this.
    How wrong you are in calling his words untrue.
    This robbery I've posted a link to below took place the night before Devin's store was robbed. It happened in Devin's home town, just 2 towns away from the AutoZone he worked at.

    A clerk was killed Thursday night after being shot multiple times during a robbery at a Hampton convenience store, police said.

    Police have identified the clerk as Mohammad Zidan, 50, of the first block of Decesare Drive, said Sgt. Jason Price, spokesman for the Hampton Police Division. Zidan was an employee at Roy's Quickserve in the 2100 block of West Pembroke Avenue.
    Hampton convenience store clerk shot multiple times during robbery - dailypress.com
    Just so you know, this clerk had complied with all the demands of the robber. I'm sure if you Google search, you will find a great many other such stories. Until you are faced with a situation, you really can not say what you would do. Put your wife or loved one in that store and you had managed to get out the back door undetected. Would you have stayed away or would you have gone back for your loved one if you had a weapon and said corporate policy be damned?
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  9. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by ValpoHawkeye View Post
    Responsible gun owners like this one, while doing the right thing, jeopardize profits.
    Having zero tolerance in protecting oneself while at work hurts their profits too. Thousands have pledged not to shop at Autozone. This boycott continues to grow. Canada in now involved. Profit margins are being affected. Perhaps it's time the bean counters looked at that. AZ could have saved themselves all this embarrassment for punishing a hero by warning him and reminding him of the policy instead of firing him. To fire him makes him the bad guy and makes AutoZone look heartless and cold. They deserve to lose customers. If they can not protect their employees (remember, this is the second time in less than 2 months this store was robbed by the same man) then they can not and will not protect their customers. Their policy allows criminals to know their stores are easy targets. They put their employees and customers lives in jeopardy through this policy alone.
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  10. #114
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    Another Employee's Reward for Stopping a Crime

    I agree with most of what you say. But the simple truth remains that corporations are cold, soulless giants that stubbornly protect their interests above all else. I know you say this boycott will harm their interests. But it will fade quickly and their profit-making schemes will resume. Remove corporate personhood and make board members and CEO's more accountable or this will never end. :(

  11. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colleen View Post
    So this is how you would have handled it yourself? I could understand not re-entering while still unprotected. But reentering with protection and knowing the layout and knowing it was only the robber and the manager in the store with the manager on his knees at the safe, the risk was minimal and saving his manager gave him justification to use deadly force. Anyone who understands criminals and has had the training to understand criminals knows the greater percentage of them are weak and scared people who bully but run when confronted. In Virginia, legally Devin would have had the right to shoot this robber.
    OK, just to have fun with your post. Guy comes back in and you say that is good because he new the layout, etc...In the time he left and returned the BG could be in a different postion. Another BG could have been in the store or in a waiting vehicle. Granted, if in a vehicl he most likely would have fled.
    We do not know the training level of this guy. And if it comes out he was in the military that means squat. Not everybody in the military is a Delta operato of Devgru so lets not go there.
    So, now you have a "weak and scared" person now being confronted with a gun and he now might think he can not escape. Scared people do unpredictable things. He could have easily have shot someone if the gun was on that person.

    Look, I know folks give me flak sometimes about what I post but just because it "worked" this time does not mean it should not be discussed what could have gone wrong. That is what AAR's for.

    And you seem to forget that the employee new this was the bearded robber and he most likely knew that if there was no resistance everybody would be OK. Fine, I undestand he was scared. That is cool. He did what folks in the forum have said what to do:get out if you can, call LE, and be a good witness. But he reneterd which could have turned into a disaster.

    BTW: for everyone that thinks this was a great idea, I took the time and looked at all of the replies and the folks that posted them. You would be amazed how your opinions have changed from other "scenario" threads where in a similiar situation you all(not everyone LOL) have replied that you would get out of the building if you could, be a good witness, and call LE. Wow, how things change now since this time it worked

    EDIT: That came out wrong LOL.....I guess the simplest way of putting it is this: 4th and 5, 1st quarter, your on your own 2 yard line. You see them line up for a punt then all of a sudden they fake it.. Everybody thinks the coach is an idiot saying "what are you doing!". Punter passes the ball and a guy runs 90+ yards for a touchdown....yeah, it worked THIS time. But you would not want that to be the normal play. And if they did not get the first down or worse, they ended up with a safety the fans would be raking the coach over the coals.

    It is fine to say"great job" It is another thing to say that is always the best course of action.
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  12. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colleen View Post
    So this is how you would have handled it yourself? I could understand not re-entering while still unprotected. But reentering with protection and knowing the layout and knowing it was only the robber and the manager in the store with the manager on his knees at the safe, the risk was minimal and saving his manager gave him justification to use deadly force. Anyone who understands criminals and has had the training to understand criminals knows the greater percentage of them are weak and scared people who bully but run when confronted. In Virginia, legally Devin would have had the right to shoot this robber.
    I was responding to your question about why many here are saying that he handled the situation poorly. Many feel that they carry for their own protection alone and some feel that they have a moral obligation to try to protect others. There is no right or wrong answer here and there are many personal factors to consider, including training and skill level. From a legal standpoint, once he left the building, he was no longer in immediate jeopardy, but he willingly placed himself in jeopardy by going back inside. From a legal standpoint this could be a sticky wicket had he shot the robber. It is not a matter of being protected (having a gun) or not. It is a matter of deliberately putting himself in position of having to use lethal force, which is contrary to most self defense statutes. Once one has reached safety, it is generally considered best to "be a good witness" and call 911.

    I also said that the alter ego concept may apply. The alter ego concept states that one may use lethal force in the defense of another when that individual would have been justified in the use of lethal force. In the case of the robber holding the manager at gun point, and having been present to KNOW that the manager did not instigate the situation, he would have been justified in using his weapon in defense of the manager. Consequently, I think that legally speaking he should be in the clear.

    (edit) suntzu makes an excellent point with respect to something I forgot, that by re-entering the building, he could have made things worse and caused the BG to act in a violent manner when he wouldn't have previously.

  13. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    OK, just to have fun with your post. Guy comes back in and you say that is good because he new the layout, etc...In the time he left and returned the BG could be in a different postion. Another BG could have been in the store or in a waiting vehicle. Granted, if in a vehicl he most likely would have fled.
    We do not know the training level of this guy. And if it comes out he was in the military that means squat. Not everybody in the military is a Delta operato of Devgru so lets not go there.
    So, now you have a "weak and scared" person now being confronted with a gun and he now might think he can not escape. Scared people do unpredictable things. He could have easily have shot someone if the gun was on that person.

    Look, I know folks give me flak sometimes about what I post but just because it "worked" this time does not mean it should not be discussed what could have gone wrong. That is what AAR's for.

    And you seem to forget that the employee new this was the bearded robber and he most likely knew that if there was no resistance everybody would be OK. Fine, I undestand he was scared. That is cool. He did what folks in the forum have said what to do:get out if you can, call LE, and be a good witness. But he reneterd which could have turned into a disaster.

    BTW: for everyone that thinks this was a great idea, I took the time and looked at all of the replies and the folks that posted them. You would be amazed how your opinions have changed from other "scenario" threads where in a similiar situation you all(not everyone LOL) have replied that you would get out of the building if you could, be a good witness, and call LE. Wow, how things change now since this time it worked
    suntzu, it can be a risky thing commenting on a scenario and what you would have done if it is made before the trial and sentencing. LOL
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  14. #118
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    A Z pays around minum wage . Yes everyone needs a job these days but wow.

    He can do better .

    Been down that road in auto management and posted here bout it last year these big corp dont care .

    I carried every day and would have done the same as the Auto Zone man did.

    And would have got booted also .

    My take is these big corps should loose a whole bunch of cash if an employee gets hurt or killed doing it there way.

  15. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    OK, just to have fun with your post. Guy comes back in and you say that is good because he new the layout, etc...In the time he left and returned the BG could be in a different postion. Another BG could have been in the store or in a waiting vehicle. Granted, if in a vehicl he most likely would have fled.
    We do not know the training level of this guy. And if it comes out he was in the military that means squat. Not everybody in the military is a Delta operato of Devgru so lets not go there.


    And you seem to forget that the employee new this was the bearded robber and he most likely knew that if there was no resistance everybody would be OK.
    He has military training. He is an expert marksman. He could see exactly where the robber was when he reentered. He saw his manager on his knees in front of the safe which was in the office not out in the store where customers would be. He had a clear shot to the robber. The robber threw up his hands and fled. The only disaster that could have happened in this scenario would have been that the robber could have fired his weapon at Devin and most assuredly missed because handguns are harder to aim than a rifle unless you do a lot of target practicing, something I'm going to lay odds this robber has never done. Devin has the training and the skill to hit what he aims at. His military training has also embedded into him the creed, leave no man behind. This is who Devin is. He will not leave a man behind and he will protect and defend another life. This is admirable qualities and not something to be ashamed of even though some simpering people believe he should have saved his own butt and left his manager behind. The police can't be every where. This robber knows this which is why for almost a year now he has run free to rob 60+ stores so far. He is so bold about it knowing the police can't find him that he hit this store a second time. Thank God for people like Devin who are willing to stand up to thugs and do exactly what the police would have done. Had it been the police, we might actually have seen a blood bath then as back up would have been called and 5 or 6 cops could have shot at him. There's more of a potential of a stray bullet hitting a bystander in that scenario. If you're going to play devil's advocate, you should have more than slippery slope theories to back up your words. As I've posted here, the night before, a store clerk two towns away complied with a robber, met the demands and ended up shot to death by the robber anyway. Some day you may have to make a split second decision too. My best to you that you choose the exact actions that everyone will agree with. Devin is not the criminal. His actions were heroic and brainwashed ideas of running and hiding to save your own butt can not take away that fact. Just ask his manager who is still grateful to this day that Devin scared the robber away.

    I do not forget he knew the robber. This was the second time this jerk had held a gun on him. When is a man allowed to be a man? When is a man allowed to stand up to a threatening bully? Devin chose this second incident to be a man and not a mouse because this time he had the opportunity to get his gun. All the mice in the world should appreciate bravery not dismiss it as a criminal act itself. Do you honestly believe that this fake bearded robber will continue to rob and never at some point decide to fire his weapon just for the thrill of shooting someone? I'm sure the dead store clerk I posted about wanted to believe that too.
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  16. #120
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    What I meant to imply in my previous post "zero tolerance = zero intelligence" wasn't necessarily just an insult to the corporate types that make these decisions. It was also a simple observation: a zero tolerance policy requires no intelligence or judgement at all from the decision maker.

    I was somewhat trying to lament a cultural problem in our litigious society. To be safe from liability (responsibility?), we have our "rules" so strictly defined that it entirely removes human judgement from the equation. The person in authority can just shrug and say "it's the rules" and never have to be responsible for the "morality" of their decision at all, so it never enters the equation. I completely understand that they are trying to limit their liability by strictly adhering to this policy. I understand it and I wouldn't take this right away from them. But it sucks.

    We as a culture have come to be driven by avoidance of responsibility. If someone makes a hard choice because they are trying to do what they feel is right within the law, they will have to live with the consequences of that choice in today's world. The AutoZone folks have a policy in place that allows them to entirely avoid making any hard choices and thus they can shift the consequences to the fellow that did.

    I will not boycott AutoZone, because I don't feel like any of the other parts stores would have made a different decision. Like I said previously, I just hope someone sees this and gives him a shot at a better job than he had.

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