Another Employee's Reward for Stopping a Crime - Page 9

Another Employee's Reward for Stopping a Crime

This is a discussion on Another Employee's Reward for Stopping a Crime within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by preachertim Nobody said separate them it is just that what he did was brave and we call it unwise. Let me play ...

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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by preachertim View Post
    Nobody said separate them it is just that what he did was brave and we call it unwise. Let me play the otherside it has been said. What if the robber had a gun or was actually doing something un Criminal and did not say please. Why would you allow the line in the sand to be so close to Money? I can only speak my opinion . Does not have to be yours. Being a criminal is a dangerous occupation that should never draw me into the realm of danger. Trying to make a living and a guy sticks a gun in your face. He chose that route not me. I would rather live with the unwise choice and still be Alive.
    I think we agree. I hope that I would've done the same as Devin. I know that I am constant in my intent to present lethal force in self defense only in the immediate threat to myself or someone whom I know intimately or so closely that I have no doubt of their reaction and orientation to my use of lethal force in their behalf.
    Though Devin removed himself from the threat, his training of leaving no man behind gave him a vicarious sense of the existing threat to his manager.
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Look, I know folks give me flak sometimes about what I post but just because it "worked" this time does not mean it should not be discussed what could have gone wrong. That is what AAR's for.

    And you seem to forget that the employee new this was the bearded robber and he most likely knew that if there was no resistance everybody would be OK. Fine, I undestand he was scared. That is cool. He did what folks in the forum have said what to do:get out if you can, call LE, and be a good witness. But he reneterd which could have turned into a disaster.

    BTW: for everyone that thinks this was a great idea, I took the time and looked at all of the replies and the folks that posted them. You would be amazed how your opinions have changed from other "scenario" threads where in a similiar situation you all(not everyone LOL) have replied that you would get out of the building if you could, be a good witness, and call LE. Wow, how things change now since this time it worked

    EDIT: That came out wrong LOL.....I guess the simplest way of putting it is this: 4th and 5, 1st quarter, your on your own 2 yard line. You see them line up for a punt then all of a sudden they fake it.. Everybody thinks the coach is an idiot saying "what are you doing!". Punter passes the ball and a guy runs 90+ yards for a touchdown....yeah, it worked THIS time. But you would not want that to be the normal play. And if they did not get the first down or worse, they ended up with a safety the fans would be raking the coach over the coals.

    It is fine to say"great job" It is another thing to say that is always the best course of action.
    Devin's way is the way I play it every time. Seriously, if you rationalize that we have 100% confidence that this is the one-and-only fake beard bandit who just points a gun at people to no effect and that compliance with this gun-wielding bandit is sure to have a happy ending, then, as Uncle Ted says, "I don't know what you're made out of"; and you need to re-read Aunt Colleen's post, above, about the clerk murdered by masked gunmen (though a fake beard is a mask, might one of them have been the fake-beard bandit?) two towns away the night before; and I believe her when she says earlier that Devin is within his legal rights in VA to act as he did:
    Hampton convenience store clerk shot multiple times during robbery - dailypress.com
    Just so you know, this clerk had complied with all the demands of the robber. I'm sure if you Google search, you will find a great many other such stories. Until you are faced with a situation, you really can not say what you would do. Put your wife or loved one in that store and you had managed to get out the back door undetected. Would you have stayed away or would you have gone back for your loved one if you had a weapon and said corporate policy be damned?

    Having zero tolerance in protecting oneself while at work hurts their profits too. Thousands have pledged not to shop at Autozone. This boycott continues to grow. Canada in now involved. Profit margins are being affected. Perhaps it's time the bean counters looked at that. AZ could have saved themselves all this embarrassment for punishing a hero by warning him and reminding him of the policy instead of firing him. To fire him makes him the bad guy and makes AutoZone look heartless and cold. They deserve to lose customers. If they can not protect their employees (remember, this is the second time in less than 2 months this store was robbed by the same man) then they can not and will not protect their customers. Their policy allows criminals to know their stores are easy targets. They put their employees and customers lives in jeopardy through this policy alone.

    He has military training. He is an expert marksman. He could see exactly where the robber was when he reentered. He saw his manager on his knees in front of the safe which was in the office not out in the store where customers would be. He had a clear shot to the robber. The robber threw up his hands and fled. The only disaster that could have happened in this scenario would have been that the robber could have fired his weapon at Devin and most assuredly missed because handguns are harder to aim than a rifle unless you do a lot of target practicing, something I'm going to lay odds this robber has never done. Devin has the training and the skill to hit what he aims at. His military training has also embedded into him the creed, leave no man behind. This is who Devin is. He will not leave a man behind and he will protect and defend another life. This is admirable qualities and not something to be ashamed of even though some simpering people believe he should have saved his own butt and left his manager behind. The police can't be every where. This robber knows this which is why for almost a year now he has run free to rob 60+ stores so far. He is so bold about it knowing the police can't find him that he hit this store a second time. Thank God for people like Devin who are willing to stand up to thugs and do exactly what the police would have done. Had it been the police, we might actually have seen a blood bath then as back up would have been called and 5 or 6 cops could have shot at him. There's more of a potential of a stray bullet hitting a bystander in that scenario. If you're going to play devil's advocate, you should have more than slippery slope theories to back up your words. As I've posted here, the night before, a store clerk two towns away complied with a robber, met the demands and ended up shot to death by the robber anyway. Some day you may have to make a split second decision too. My best to you that you choose the exact actions that everyone will agree with. Devin is not the criminal. His actions were heroic and brainwashed ideas of running and hiding to save your own butt can not take away that fact. Just ask his manager who is still grateful to this day that Devin scared the robber away.

    I do not forget he knew the robber. This was the second time this jerk had held a gun on him. When is a man allowed to be a man? When is a man allowed to stand up to a threatening bully? Devin chose this second incident to be a man and not a mouse because this time he had the opportunity to get his gun. All the mice in the world should appreciate bravery not dismiss it as a criminal act itself. Do you honestly believe that this fake bearded robber will continue to rob and never at some point decide to fire his weapon just for the thrill of shooting someone? I'm sure the dead store clerk I posted about wanted to believe that too.
    preachertim likes this.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)


  2. #122
    Member Array Colleen's Avatar
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    For anyone interested who has not heard this radio interview yet, this is Devin on the phone with Cam Edwards of the NRA https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...v=cIIVoApRS1Q#

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colleen View Post
    He has military training. He is an expert marksman.
    Pleassssee....first of all, was he an Expert (highest in the army) or marksman (lowest in the army). Most folks qualify with a rifle, not a handgun. And do yo know how hard it is to hit a stationary (sometimes pop up) target from a static position where there is no threat to you and you have ample time to take your shots from a position you are comftoarbale with? Point is....who cares....it means nothing with the situation he was involved in.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Pleassssee....first of all, was he an Expert (highest in the army) or marksman (lowest in the army). Most folks qualify with a rifle, not a handgun. And do yo know how hard it is to hit a stationary (sometimes pop up) target from a static position where there is no threat to you and you have ample time to take your shots from a position you are comftoarbale with? Point is....who cares....it means nothing with the situation he was involved in.
    It means everything. He was trained with both assault rifle and handgun and he practices at the target range on weekends. Until the robber ran, he WAS stationary! When the robber ran, Devin at that point had no reason to shoot at him. I have a sneaking suspicion that Devin's actions have somehow emasculated you because you could not do what he did. You will deny this but your words seem to be resentful towards him. Just my opinion of course.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrandZJ View Post
    I used to work for AutoZone. Doesn't surprise me that they fired him for what he did. I work for a competitor now and they're the same way. Zero tolerance to weapons. They also expect us to stop people from shoplifting without confronting them...how does that work?
    Which competitor? We can boycott them as well.

  6. #126
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colleen View Post
    It means everything. He was trained with both assault rifle and handgun and he practices at the target range on weekends. Until the robber ran, he WAS stationary! When the robber ran, Devin at that point had no reason to shoot at him. I have a sneaking suspicion that Devin's actions have somehow emasculated you because you could not do what he did. You will deny this but your words seem to be resentful towards him. Just my opinion of course.
    That WAS an immature post. If you took time to read my previous posts then you would know I do not want the man fired. I was trying to make the point that being "expert marksman" means squat. It is not that difficult. I was trying to point thta out to you. Even getting expert means nothing. It is not that hard. You can retort anyway you want.

    I try to look at every incident here and do an AAR on it which means you look at what went right, what went wrong, what could be done better and what could have gone wrong.

    You do this after any combat action in the military. You do not sit there high fiving each other becuase it "worked" this time when you know that something could have gone wrong.

    Sorry if pointing out obvious problems that could occur bothers you. Yes, you do have to what if it. If anything for learning points. Many roberries have another guy involved that you don't see. If that happened here it could have been a disaster. Five bucks says this man did not even think about that.

    If you have a personal issue with me or my post then I highly suggest you take it up with a mod or PM directly. Immature post I don't normally reply to but since you are new and I have the time I thought I would.

    Ask many of the veterans here if military qualifications for the basic soldier are all that important.....some will say yes, some will say no. But they are never an indication of how well someone does in combat.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    first of all, was he an Expert (highest in the army) or marksman (lowest in the army). Most folks qualify with a rifle, not a handgun. And do yo know how hard it is to hit a stationary (sometimes pop up) target from a static position where there is no threat to you and you have ample time to take your shots from a position you are comftoarbale with? Point is....who cares....it means nothing with the situation he was involved in....
    I try to look at every incident here and do an AAR on it which means you look at what went right, what went wrong, what could be done better and what could have gone wrong.

    You do this after any combat action in the military. You do not sit there high fiving each other becuase it "worked" this time when you know that something could have gone wrong.

    Sorry if pointing out obvious problems that could occur bothers you. Yes, you do have to what if it. If anything for learning points. Many roberries have another guy involved that you don't see. If that happened here it could have been a disaster. Five bucks says this man did not even think about that.
    ...

    Ask many of the veterans here if military qualifications for the basic soldier are all that important.....some will say yes, some will say no. But they are never an indication of how well someone does in combat.
    Military training means nothing to you? It does to me. And we're not taking about combat - just about a man being where a man believed he should be.
    You say it was risky. AZ says it's risky. You weigh your AAR, but I hope that Devin comes to the same conclusion for me or any good man the next time he has to weigh the risks and act as a human on behalf of another.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  8. #128
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    Military training means nothing to you? It does to me. And we're not taking about combat - just about a man being where a man believed he should be.
    You say it was risky. AZ says it's risky. You weigh your AAR, but I hope that Devin comes to the same conclusion for me or any good man the next time he has to weigh the risks and act as a human on behalf of another.
    That is not what I said. I said that military qualificiations (here I was talking about weapons quals on a range) are not inidicators on how well some one can do in combat. I was replying to Collen who was asserting that his military training was important. Well, sorry but my feeling is that if you are in an MOS where you qualify once a year at that is it then your little qualification badge means nothing to me.
    It is not a hit on any vet (I am one myself). It is a fact that it is not a difficult task and it does not translate to a situation like this man was in. It is a general statement. There are folks that their training prepares them for situations better than others. That is not opinion.

    Same thing for her statement that he goes to the range a lot. Who cares. Plugging paper targets without any stress is not all that difficult either.

    Those are the points I am making.

    I ahve never said anything bad about this gentleman and wish him well and I think Autozone handled it badly. I think that Autozone has the right to determine its policies.

    And I say again, if the BG shot someone because of this mans actions then we would be raking him over the coals. It always sems fine to do 20/20 hindsite when things go wrong but oh no, we can't 20/20 hindsite something even if it went well.

    It is a learning point. If you or anyone chooses to do what this man does you need to think about a lot of other different things before yo go back into the autozone.

    If that bothers folks for brining up important points that is too bad. I have been on ops where the end result was good but realized during the AAR that if certain unknown conditions were present we would have been fried.

    You incorporate that into your next planning. You plan for the known and no include lessons from the past and plan for unkowns (in this case a second BG)

    EDIT: Amusing Story somewht related to replie to my posts:
    1. Soldier in Korea who has shot Expert decided one day for fun at the range that he would shoot the "Safety First" sign. Nope, don't want that guyworking in my establishment armed even though he was an "Expert". Would you? He got kicked out of the army for other reasons than being a nutcase because it was quicker.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  9. #129
    Member Array Colleen's Avatar
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    Whenever a person can not defend their side of a debate, they respond with the "you're immature" card. You are a pencil pusher. A man who likes to sit down and make a plan weighing the pros and cons. You take your time and study and consider every angle before you run the risk of any sort of action. You do desk duty. Well if you were ever in combat, then you know there is no time for all that and in the face of danger, you protect your own. My family is filled with service members. They all have pride and honor and they defend whenever and where ever they can. It's the way of the Patriot. Staring at the barrel of a gun being pointed at you does not give a person time to sit down and draw up a neat little plan on how to handle the situation. Devin was there. You were not. Having talked to Devin personally, I know what was in his mind, you just sit there and guess and try to add it into your graph of angles and what ifs. Devin knew it was only himself, his manager and the robber in the store at the time. All situations are unique and knowing this robber worked alone as he had been doing so for almost a year and knowing there was the potential that he would just keep coming back to rob a store with lots of cash on hand that is easy to rob, Devin made a decision to try and stop him. You want to keep believing that being awarded a marksman badge means nothing, that's on you. To me it means he knows how to shoot and kill if he must. Again, your plan failed for the store clerk who did what he was told. He is dead now in spite of the neat little plan of compliance that you would rather support. I find your signature interesting. It seems to be something you believe in but when push comes to shove, I wonder if you could rise up and be the "me" to be sent. The me who defends. You are trying to lump all such incidents into one just like the pencil pushing bean counters in these corporations do. You are wrong and so are they. Each situation is unique and should be treated as such. You can continue to believe he did the wrong thing because someone might have gotten hurt and I will continue to believe he did the right thing because no one got hurt. I will also continue to hope we have thousands more like him here in the United States where our Patriotic history is one of "we protect our own".
    Pistology and 1MoreGoodGuy like this.

  10. #130
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Colleen, I PM'ed you. I have not personally attacked you and wish you would do so also. You seem to nbe missing many points for reasons unknown.
    1. You discuss actions after they happen and analyze them Not when you have to fight
    2. 100 percent of folks in the Army have been a marksman before. Does not mean they can really shoot all that well. Just like having a drivers liscens, it does not make you a MArio Andretti
    3. For some reason you think I am against this man when I have publicy stated I did not want him fired
    4. You are right, I do try to lump everything together. That is what you do when you make policy. You also should not have a zero tolerance policy like AZ which required the man to be fired. I think that the managers should decide on the punishment after considering all the facts

    Now, if you still feel the need to reply and twist my words and try to figure out who and what I am and what I have done...feel free. But there is a line.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  11. #131
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    It's not rocket science. The bean counters and a lot of official cop advice say, "don't resist". A clerk at the Roy's Quickserve in Hampton, two towns over, the previous night, complied and died. Devin at AZ in Yorktown acted legally, and rightfully, to defend his store manager and saved the day if not a life.
    Even professional cops get killed, unfortunately. But Devin acted as one familiar with the layout and the modus operandi of the criminal(s) on the scene. I don't hear the professional law officers of Yorktown or York County calling for a moratorium on acts like Devin took.
    “One of the officers asked why I didn’t shoot the robber,” McLean said.

    Sheriff J.D. Diggs told Fox News he considers McLean to be a hero.

    “He did a very brave thing,” the sheriff said. “He put himself in jeopardy in an attempt to make sure his friend was safe. He did a very brave thing.”

    The part-time worker’s manager was especially thankful and credited McLean with saving his life.

    But two days after the robbery – and just a week before Thanksgiving – McLean was fired.....

    The sheriff said he was disappointed to hear that McLean lost his job on account of stopping the robbery.

    “That’s certainly unfortunate,” he said. “They should be doing something to reward that young man instead of firing him.”

    Sheriff Diggs said AutoZone has also sent an unintended message to the community.

    “The company has now sent a message to every would-be robber out there – ‘Hey we’re open for business and unarmed. Come on in and take our money,’” he said.
    Colleen and preachertim like this.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Colleen, I PM'ed you. I have not personally attacked you and wish you would do so also. You seem to nbe missing many points for reasons unknown.
    No, you have only attacked my nephew and his character and his ability to handle a situation without even knowing him.

    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    1. You discuss actions after they happen and analyze them Not when you have to fight
    No, this is something YOU do and apparently you feel you have the right to do this for others even though you were not there in their shoes while the situation was happening without even talking to them personally about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    2. 100 percent of folks in the Army have been a marksman before. Does not mean they can really shoot all that well. Just like having a drivers liscens, it does not make you a MArio Andretti
    Instead of continuously posting your personal opinion of my nephews skills without even knowing him, how about this, you drop your one sided thinking and understand he is an ace shot and can and will hit what he aims at. It's in his genes. We are all excellent shots on this side of his gene pool.
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    3. For some reason you think I am against this man when I have publicy stated I did not want him fired
    You have made it clear that you are against his actions. You think he should have stayed out side and left a man behind.

    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    4. You are right, I do try to lump everything together. That is what you do when you make policy. You also should not have a zero tolerance policy like AZ which required the man to be fired. I think that the managers should decide on the punishment after considering all the facts
    You contradict yourself here. You can not think one way then try to flow another. Your words are clear. Nothing twisted in my reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Now, if you still feel the need to reply and twist my words and try to figure out who and what I am and what I have done...feel free. But there is a line.
    Threats always make me smile. It means I've gotten through and a person is seeing themselves in a light they do not like. You gave me an even more clearer threat in PM. Why did you PM me by the way? Much of what you said in PM you said here. Why the duplicity?
    Last edited by Colleen; December 4th, 2012 at 08:27 PM.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    It's not rocket science. The bean counters and a lot of official cop advice say, "don't resist". A clerk at the Roy's Quickserve in Hampton, two towns over, the previous night, complied and died. Devin at AZ in Yorktown acted legally, and rightfully, to defend his store manager and saved the day if not a life.
    Even professional cops get killed, unfortunately. But Devin acted as one familiar with the layout and the modus operandi of the criminal(s) on the scene. I don't hear the professional law officers of Yorktown or York County calling for a moratorium on acts like Devin took.
    Actually, the police officer who took Devin's report asked him and I quote his exact words, "When you drew your gun on him, why didn't you cap his a**?" I'm sure the police are frustrated with not being able to catch this guy after almost a year. They are probably hoping some other brave citizen will do just as Devin did and the next time do just that, cap his a**.

  14. #134
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Colleen, good night.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  15. #135
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    The point you make about getting out of the building and being a good witness is probably ok at certain times. I personally have decide that if someone else's life is in danger and the police have not arrived I have an obligation to do what I would want done for me. Save my Life . not let them get drug to the back to count and pray for mercy from the guy who is desperate and stupid. Not to mention the fact that they may not be in the mood to give mercy. way to many horror stories to back that up. I agree as you some are being brainwashed by the group who say Carry the gun but remember you are Passive. Hogwash. If I am shot they will find brass strung out all around my dead Lifeless corpse cling to the only chance I have, not the guy who decided to rob the place. The victim selection process has Now Changed.
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    OK, just to have fun with your post. Guy comes back in and you say that is good because he new the layout, etc...In the time he left and returned the BG could be in a different postion. Another BG could have been in the store or in a waiting vehicle. Granted, if in a vehicl he most likely would have fled.
    We do not know the training level of this guy. And if it comes out he was in the military that means squat. Not everybody in the military is a Delta operato of Devgru so lets not go there.
    So, now you have a "weak and scared" person now being confronted with a gun and he now might think he can not escape. Scared people do unpredictable things. He could have easily have shot someone if the gun was on that person.

    Look, I know folks give me flak sometimes about what I post but just because it "worked" this time does not mean it should not be discussed what could have gone wrong. That is what AAR's for.

    And you seem to forget that the employee new this was the bearded robber and he most likely knew that if there was no resistance everybody would be OK. Fine, I undestand he was scared. That is cool. He did what folks in the forum have said what to do:get out if you can, call LE, and be a good witness. But he reneterd which could have turned into a disaster.

    BTW: for everyone that thinks this was a great idea, I took the time and looked at all of the replies and the folks that posted them. You would be amazed how your opinions have changed from other "scenario" threads where in a similiar situation you all(not everyone LOL) have replied that you would get out of the building if you could, be a good witness, and call LE. Wow, how things change now since this time it worked

    EDIT: That came out wrong LOL.....I guess the simplest way of putting it is this: 4th and 5, 1st quarter, your on your own 2 yard line. You see them line up for a punt then all of a sudden they fake it.. Everybody thinks the coach is an idiot saying "what are you doing!". Punter passes the ball and a guy runs 90+ yards for a touchdown....yeah, it worked THIS time. But you would not want that to be the normal play. And if they did not get the first down or worse, they ended up with a safety the fans would be raking the coach over the coals.

    It is fine to say"great job" It is another thing to say that is always the best course of action.
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